• Welcome To ShotTalk.com!

    We are one of the oldest and largest Golf forums on the internet with golfers from around the world sharing tips, photos and planning golf outings.

    Registering is free and easy! Hope to see you on the forums soon!

Rules question

brillo

Leftswing
Dec 7, 2007
27
0
Just wanted to know the ruling on this. The rules book didn't explain it too well. Here's what happened. Brandon tee'd up past the tees and John told him before he hit that he was past the tees. That sounds like assisting him, which would cost John a stroke. The rules book says that you have to tell them as soon as you can, but doesn't that mean after they break the rule. Thanks for any help on this one.
 

RickinMA

Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
Feb 3, 2007
1,845
27
I don't think that would be assisting him - (I could be wrong though)
Say for example John saw Brandon wiff a stroke (that Brandon forgot to count at the end of the hole) and John called him out on it or called him on any other rules violation before Brandon turned in his scorecard you could view it as "assisting" him by preventing him from turning in a bad card - I just don't see any of this stuff as assisting him - but again, I could be way off.
Of course, if I were John, I'd just make a comment like "decided to play from the ladies tees on this one?"
 

FKA19

winter ho'in
May 21, 2006
1,202
0
I'd put down $15 000 (all my savings haha) saying that there is no penalty for telling him before he swung. That definitely wouldn't be considered assisting him.
 

Pa Jayhawk

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2005
7,101
4
Well, since he never put the ball in play, then I guess you could likely classify it on giving advice on "Line of Play"

In which case there is no penalty 8.2a:
Except on the putting green , a player may have the line of play indicated to him by anyone, but no one may be positioned by the player on or close to the line or an extension of the line beyond the hole while the stroke is being made. Any mark placed by the player or with his knowledge to indicate the line must be removed before the stroke is made.
 

Fourputt

Littleton, Colorado
Sep 5, 2006
973
0
Information on the rules is not assistance. Passively sitting back when you know that another player is about to break a rule can be a penalty. Thus, by informing Brandon of his imminent breach, John actually saved both players from penalty situations. :thumbs up:
 

VoteWhitey4Prez

Well-Known Member
Apr 22, 2007
67
0
Information on the rules is not assistance. Passively sitting back when you know that another player is about to break a rule can be a penalty. Thus, by informing Brandon of his imminent breach, John actually saved both players from penalty situations. :thumbs up:

John is my hero.
 

Eracer

No more triple bogies!!
Oct 31, 2005
12,405
8
Sorry to threadjack, but I have another rules question. I found this new Decision while looking for a Decision that related to brillo's question.

13-4/8 When Club Touches Ground in Grass in Water Hazard
Q.​
[FONT=Century Gothic,Century Gothic]If a player’s ball lies in a water hazard, when is his club in tall grass considered to be touching the ground in the water hazard, in breach of Rule 13-4b?

[/FONT]
A.​
[FONT=Century Gothic,Century Gothic]When the grass is compressed to the point where it will support the weight of the club (i.e., when the club is grounded). (New) [/FONT]
[FONT=Century Gothic,Century Gothic][/FONT]
[FONT=Century Gothic,Century Gothic]My ball was sitting in a lateral water hazard (red stakes) and I swished my club through the grass before addressing my ball. My playing partner pointed out that I was grounding my club in a hazard and should be penalized (Rule 13-4b). I agreed with him (since I thought you couldn't touch anything in a hazard).[/FONT]
[FONT=Century Gothic,Century Gothic][/FONT]
[FONT=Century Gothic,Century Gothic]Now I see this decision, and it appears that what I did was not a violation of Rule 13-4b. But I wonder whether I should still have been penalized for "testing the conditions of the hazard" (Rule 13-4a).

[/FONT]
 

Eracer

No more triple bogies!!
Oct 31, 2005
12,405
8
Now, back on topic:

There are penalties for giving advice, but in this case, what John did was not considered giving advice.

Definition:
"Information on the
Rules, distance or matters of public information,
such as the position of
hazards or the flagstick on the putting
green
, is not advice."


However the Rules of Golf make it clear that it is the competitor's responsibility to know the rules and assess penalties on himself for a breach of the rules.

So:

"If a
competitor, when starting a hole, plays a ball from outside
the
teeing ground, he incurs a penalty of two strokes and must
then play a ball from within the
teeing ground.

If the
competitor makes a stroke from the next teeing ground without
first correcting his mistake or, in the case of the last hole
of the round, leaves the
putting green without first declaring his
intention to correct his mistake, he is disqualified."



Fourputt states that it can be a breach of the rules to not inform a fellow-competitor that he is about to break a rule. I can find nothing in the rules that say this. (Fourputt, can you find that rule for us?) Nor would John have erred if he witheld information about the penalty, and allowed Brandon to be disqualified (assuming it could be proved that Brandon did commit the penalty.)

The Rules are clear. It is the Player's responsibility to assess penalties on himself for a breach of the rules. There are additional penalties (including disqualification) for failing to do so.
 

Fourputt

Littleton, Colorado
Sep 5, 2006
973
0
Now, back on topic:

There are penalties for giving advice, but in this case, what John did was not considered giving advice.

Definition:
"Information on the
Rules, distance or matters of public information,
such as the position of
hazards or the flagstick on the putting
green
, is not advice."

However the Rules of Golf make it clear that it is the competitor's responsibility to know the rules and assess penalties on himself for a breach of the rules.

So:

"If a
competitor, when starting a hole, plays a ball from outside
the
teeing ground, he incurs a penalty of two strokes and must
then play a ball from within the
teeing ground.

If the
competitor makes a stroke from the next teeing ground without
first correcting his mistake or, in the case of the last hole
of the round, leaves the
putting green without first declaring his
intention to correct his mistake, he is disqualified."


Fourputt states that it can be a breach of the rules to not inform a fellow-competitor that he is about to break a rule. I can find nothing in the rules that say this. (Fourputt, can you find that rule for us?) Nor would John have erred if he witheld information about the penalty, and allowed Brandon to be disqualified (assuming it could be proved that Brandon did commit the penalty.)

The Rules are clear. It is the Player's responsibility to assess penalties on himself for a breach of the rules. There are additional penalties (including disqualification) for failing to do so.

If the information is not given to Player A by Player B, and it is deemed that it was intentional for the purpose of informing the committee later to cause the disqualification of the Player A, then the committee can also DQ Player B. I believe that it requires a Committee decision as to whether the omission was intentional. It goes with the integrity, sportsmanship and fair play that underlies so much of the tradition of the game.

33-7 Disqualification Penalty; Committee Discretion

A penalty of disqualification may in exceptional individual cases be waived, modified or imposed if the Committee considers such action warranted.
Any penalty less than disqualification must not be waived or modified.
If a Committee considers that a player is guilty of a serious breach of etiquette, it may impose a penalty of disqualification under this Rule.
 

Fourputt

Littleton, Colorado
Sep 5, 2006
973
0
Sorry to threadjack, but I have another rules question. I found this new Decision while looking for a Decision that related to brillo's question.

13-4/8 When Club Touches Ground in Grass in Water Hazard
Q.​
[FONT=Century Gothic,Century Gothic]If a player’s ball lies in a water hazard, when is his club in tall grass considered to be touching the ground in the water hazard, in breach of Rule 13-4b? [/FONT]​
[FONT=Century Gothic,Century Gothic][/FONT]
A.​
[FONT=Century Gothic,Century Gothic]When the grass is compressed to the point where it will support the weight of the club (i.e., when the club is grounded). (New) [/FONT]

[FONT=Century Gothic,Century Gothic]My ball was sitting in a lateral water hazard (red stakes) and I swished my club through the grass before addressing my ball. My playing partner pointed out that I was grounding my club in a hazard and should be penalized (Rule 13-4b). I agreed with him (since I thought you couldn't touch anything in a hazard).[/FONT]

[FONT=Century Gothic,Century Gothic]Now I see this decision, and it appears that what I did was not a violation of Rule 13-4b. But I wonder whether I should still have been penalized for "testing the conditions of the hazard" (Rule 13-4a).[/FONT]​
[FONT=Century Gothic,Century Gothic][/FONT]

See the Note under Rule 13-4.

Note: At any time, including at address or in the backward movement for the stroke, the player may touch with a club or otherwise any obstruction, any construction declared by the Committee to be an integral part of the course or any grass, bush, tree or other growing thing.
 

Eracer

No more triple bogies!!
Oct 31, 2005
12,405
8
If the information is not given to Player A by Player B, and it is deemed that it was intentional for the purpose of informing the committee later to cause the disqualification of the Player A, then the committee can also DQ Player B. I believe that it requires a Committee decision as to whether the omission was intentional. It goes with the integrity, sportsmanship and fair play that underlies so much of the tradition of the game.

So in this case John had no responsibility to inform Brandon that he was about to break a rule, but could have been held responsible for not telling him that he had broken a rule and needed to assess himself a two stroke penalty. I guess in this case it would be pretty obvious that John had intended to get Brandon DQ'd by not telling him about the infraction before he teed off on the next hole. In this case there is an interpretation of what "inform the committee later" means. I would think the committee would assume that if a John waited until after Brandon teed off on the next hole, that it was materially the same as waiting until the round was over.

I imagine it's a bit dicier when the fellow-competitor is also the marker and doesn't tell the competitor that the score that the marker posted for the hole was too low. In this case, the competitor is DQ'd for signing an incorrect scorecard, but the marker says, "oops, I didn't notice".

Thanks Fourputt.
 

Fourputt

Littleton, Colorado
Sep 5, 2006
973
0
So in this case John had no responsibility to inform Brandon that he was about to break a rule, but could have been held responsible for not telling him that he had broken a rule and needed to assess himself a two stroke penalty. I guess in this case it would be pretty obvious that John had intended to get Brandon DQ'd by not telling him about the infraction before he teed off on the next hole. In this case there is an interpretation of what "inform the committee later" means. I would think the committee would assume that if a John waited until after Brandon teed off on the next hole, that it was materially the same as waiting until the round was over.

I imagine it's a bit dicier when the fellow-competitor is also the marker and doesn't tell the competitor that the score that the marker posted for the hole was too low. In this case, the competitor is DQ'd for signing an incorrect scorecard, but the marker says, "oops, I didn't notice".

Thanks Fourputt.

It's definitely a situation where the committee would have to have some reason to believe that John had done it deliberately. As you say, just informing him immediately after the shot, it's possible that it was noticed just as the swing was being made... or it's possible that that John needed those strokes and was aware all along that Brandon was teed in the wrong place, but how would you prove it? Tough call there. However, if he waited to say anything until after the next tee, then I think you can easily make a case for a serious breach of etiquette.

In such a situation myself, I make every effort to help my opponent or fellow competitor avoid the penalty in the first place. IMO, that is most in keeping with the spirit of the game. :)
 

Eracer

No more triple bogies!!
Oct 31, 2005
12,405
8
In such a situation myself, I make every effort to help my opponent or fellow competitor avoid the penalty in the first place. IMO, that is most in keeping with the spirit of the game. :)

Definitely. I don't mind a little gamesmanship, like not conceding a putt, but if someone told me after the fact that I had teed up outside the tee box and had to take a two stroke penalty, I doubt I would ever play golf with them again. In a tournament, I can see it, but I wouldn't think very highly of the guy.
 

Most reactions

Latest posts

Top