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Shawn Foley's Dramatic Revelations on How to Hit a Draw

cypressperch

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Jun 24, 2006
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In the latest GOLF DIGEST, Shawn Foley talks of new knowledge about what makes a ball curve left to right. He begins by saying that clubface angle at impact determines initial ball flight direction, not clubhead path. Everything he is saying is totally different from what all other folks have said about how to draw a ball that we have been reading since forever. Then he floors me by saying that instead of the clubface being closed at impact, it has to be open!

This is getting to me because I am thinking, "For about fifty-six years if I have wanted to hook a ball around a tree, I have always aimed to the right of the tree, closed the clubface to where it is aimed at the landing area or target on the other side of the tree, and then made my swing." I do this because that was what I was taught. Closing the face means that at impact, the toe of the club gets to the ball before the heel, and this puts counter clock-wise spin (right-handed golfer) on the ball. The clubhead path will be to the right of the tree, the spin catches on and you get curvature around the tree, and past the tree. So Foley is sort of irritating me a bit.

But then Foley says that having the clubface open so many degrees gets the ball going right, and that you need to have the clubface a few degrees less open! Now wait just a minute, Shawn. You have now closed the clubface in relation to the clubhead path. You are not making any startling revelation at all.

The clubface being open is open in relation to the target line, but that is not the clubhead path.

There is no doubt that Shawn Foley is about as knowledgeable about golf as anyone, but I honestly believe he has blown it on this great new discovery just made possible by new technology. Actually, I saw this same idea presented as a great new discovery in a golf magazine in an article by some young gun that called scratch golfers "sticks." I did not believe it then, and even with the Shawn Foley saying it, I still do not buy it. I doubt if John Jacobs would buy it either. Or Hogan, or Nelson, or Snead, or anyone who can bend a ball around an obstacle. Also, if the clubface has to be open at impact, why does a draw biased driver have a CLOSED CLUBFACE, and believe me, that closed face produces draw spin. Cypress Perch
 

SilverUberXeno

El Tigre Blanco
Jul 26, 2005
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Basic physics has always shown that the ball will begin on a line perpendicular to the club face at impact, then curve in relation to the movement to the club head through that line. Better late than never, Foley... But... DUH.

Cypress, a closed club face does not produce draw spin. You're looking at it backwards. The ball leaves the club head perpendicular to the angle of the face, then curves relative to the club head's path. Your "shut club face" will cause a draw because your club head path is "in to out" relative to the angle of the club face.

You can hit the ball with a closed club face and create no draw spin, if the path of the club is square to the face angle (would be out to in.) that's a pull, and evidence enough that a closed/open face alone does not, ever, create side spin.
 

Augster

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Mar 9, 2005
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Are you saying you don't believe in the "new ballflight laws"? Because they are fact. Proven over and over again through Trackman and Flightscope testing.

In order to hit a true draw, you need to start the ball right and have it curve back to the target. That is a draw. In order to have it do that, the face needs to be OPEN to the target at impact and closed to the path. The ball starts right due to the open clubface, then draws back due to the open clubface being closed to the path. I believe that is what Foley is getting at saying you need an open clubface, but it needs to be a few degrees less open than the path.

And that is the simple version. Add in D-Plane and there is even more to know.
 

BigJim13

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Thanks for explaining that SUX & Aug, Cypress lost me! :)
 

anonymous golfaholic

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You can hit a draw just by closing the clubface, just as long as you don't alter your swing path and start coming OTT. Because a straight down the line club path then becomes an in-to-out, relative to the face. That is why the OP has always got results from doing this. When someone does this the shot is typically low and barely drawing.

If I want to hit a high draw, I open the face...I just have to exaggerate my swing to a severe in-to-out path. If not, I risk hitting a serious block. If it is imperative that I get the ball up, say over a tree, then I also make sure I hit the ball at the bottom of my swing arch. I have to make a conscious effort to do this because I tend to stay on top of the ball and trap it.
 

trumb1mj

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All I've been thinking about when trying to hit a draw lately is, "hit the right side of the ball." Not sure where I heard this but it works for me.
 

SilverUberXeno

El Tigre Blanco
Jul 26, 2005
4,620
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You can hit a draw just by closing the clubface, just as long as you don't alter your swing path and start coming OTT.

We need to clearly define our terms:

If you make a normal swing with a closed clubface, the ball will absolutely start left of your swing-path-line. So, if you line up to the right of a tree, then close your clubface (to face the tree) and make a swing, you're going to hit the ball directly into that tree. The ball is not ever going to START on the line that your club is swinging on unless the clubface is square to that line. This would not be a draw, it would be a PULL-draw. It would start left, and turn farther left.

If you're hitting draws swinging normally with a closed clubface, you're not swinging normally, and your clubface is not doing what you think it's doing at impact. That just doesn't happen. Physics.

To hit a draw a around a tree, you would need to line up WELL right of the tree, then close the clubface at an angle that is between your target line and the tree. That way the ball would start to the right of the tree (perpendicular to the angle of the clubface) and turn left, around the tree, as a result of the relative in-to-out-path of the club.

What you WOULN'T do is line up a little right of the tree, then turn the clubface directly toward the tree. If you actually swung successfully this way, that ball is going into the tree.
 

anonymous golfaholic

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Hey, I didn't say it was the right way to do it. I just said that the ball will draw...regardless of the line it starts on.

As long as the face is not perpendicular to the path, you will get a curved ball flight.
 
OP
C

cypressperch

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Jun 24, 2006
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I do not want to be accused of beating farks out of a dead mule, but Foley made no startling discovery. When one is playing a draw/hook, I do not see any need to be concerned with the line from the ball to the intended target (the target line). The line that matters is the line you want to hit the ball on, and it, yes, your club face will be open relative to the target line, but the target line has nothing to do with the shot you are playing. So why talk about the clubface being open in the first place?

At impact, the clubface has to be somewhat closed in relation to the clubhead path. If you drew a line through the ball that matched the clubhead path, and the clubface at impact were perpendicular (square) to the that line, the ball flight would be straight with no curvature at all, either right or left. If at impact, the toe is ahead of the heel of the club, the clubface will be closed relative to the clubhead path. You might get a slight draw or a full-blown duck-hook, depending on how closed the clubface is at impact. I will stick with John Jacobs on the importance of clubhead path when it comes to the determination of INITIAL BALL flight. You can have the clubface closed dramatically, and the ball will go pretty close to the clughead path, get out a ways and then, as the foward velocity weakens, the hook spin kicks in and the ball will hook violently to the left (right handed golfer). In bowling, you put spin on the ball to make it hook, but the ball will go straight over the second arrow from the right, the spin kicks in, and there it goes towards the one-three pocket for a strike. So velocity has a say in this equation, as does the angle of attack, the loft of the clubface, among other things. To be more precise, we could get into a vector analysis as well.

I do not expect to ever go looking for a draw biased driver with an open face built into it. And if I take that open-faced draw-biased driver out to the range and start hitting draws with it, I will humbly retract every word that I have written. There is the square clubface at impact that produces a straight shot with no curvature, a clubface that is closed because the toe beats the heel to impact producing draw/hook curvature, a clubface that is open because the heel beats the toe to impact producing fade/slice curvature.
In all of this, the clubhead path might be a pull, square or straight at target, or a push. With these three clubhead paths we can have pulled hooks, straight pulls, or pulled slices because of the interaction between clubhead path and clubface position at impact. Same for straight or pushed shots.

John Jacobs says clubhead path determines (more than anything else) the initial or starting direction of ball flight. He says that clubface position at impact will determine the final direction of ball flight when the curvature provided by the clubface position kicks in somewhere after the shot is underway.

Sincerely, Cypressperch
 

BigJim13

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I do not want to be accused of beating farks out of a dead mule, but Foley made no startling discovery. When one is playing a draw/hook, I do not see any need to be concerned with the line from the ball to the intended target (the target line). The line that matters is the line you want to hit the ball on, and it, yes, your club face will be open relative to the target line, but the target line has nothing to do with the shot you are playing. So why talk about the clubface being open in the first place?

At impact, the clubface has to be somewhat closed in relation to the clubhead path. If you drew a line through the ball that matched the clubhead path, and the clubface at impact were perpendicular (square) to the that line, the ball flight would be straight with no curvature at all, either right or left. If at impact, the toe is ahead of the heel of the club, the clubface will be closed relative to the clubhead path. You might get a slight draw or a full-blown duck-hook, depending on how closed the clubface is at impact. I will stick with John Jacobs on the importance of clubhead path when it comes to the determination of INITIAL BALL flight. You can have the clubface closed dramatically, and the ball will go pretty close to the clughead path, get out a ways and then, as the foward velocity weakens, the hook spin kicks in and the ball will hook violently to the left (right handed golfer). In bowling, you put spin on the ball to make it hook, but the ball will go straight over the second arrow from the right, the spin kicks in, and there it goes towards the one-three pocket for a strike. So velocity has a say in this equation, as does the angle of attack, the loft of the clubface, among other things. To be more precise, we could get into a vector analysis as well.

I do not expect to ever go looking for a draw biased driver with an open face built into it. And if I take that open-faced draw-biased driver out to the range and start hitting draws with it, I will humbly retract every word that I have written. There is the square clubface at impact that produces a straight shot with no curvature, a clubface that is closed because the toe beats the heel to impact producing draw/hook curvature, a clubface that is open because the heel beats the toe to impact producing fade/slice curvature.
In all of this, the clubhead path might be a pull, square or straight at target, or a push. With these three clubhead paths we can have pulled hooks, straight pulls, or pulled slices because of the interaction between clubhead path and clubface position at impact. Same for straight or pushed shots.

John Jacobs says clubhead path determines (more than anything else) the initial or starting direction of ball flight. He says that clubface position at impact will determine the final direction of ball flight when the curvature provided by the clubface position kicks in somewhere after the shot is underway.

Sincerely, Cypressperch
Cliff notes? :)

Just kidding, good to see you back around!!
 

eclark53520

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The ball will always leave the club face in a direction that is perpendicular to the face of the club. Always. The path the club head is on has nothing to do with the initial direction of flight.

Take an over exaggeration and close the club face a lot. Swing way inside to outside. Your theory says it will start right then draw back quickly. That's incorrect. It will be a duck hook starting low and left and spinning further left. It will not start out to the right and come back as you pay it would if the ball follows the club path.
 

anonymous golfaholic

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I will stick with John Jacobs on the importance of clubhead path when it comes to the determination of INITIAL BALL flight.

I used to think this too. Until I met Zach. It's almost mind-blowing when you realize that it is the other way around. But honestly, it doesn't matter. The thing that matters is what I stated in a previous post; if the club path is not perpendicular or 90* to the club face, then you will get a curved ball flight. If the angle between the two changes, then you get side-spin or curved ball flight. And actually there is not such thing as side-spin, there is just backspin with a tilted axis.
 

eclark53520

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I used to think this too. Until I met Zach. It's almost mind-blowing when you realize that it is the other way around. But honestly, it doesn't matter. The thing that matters is what I stated in a previous post; if the club path is not perpendicular or 90* to the club face, then you will get a curved ball flight. If the angle between the two changes, then you get side-spin or curved ball flight. And actually there is not such thing as side-spin, there is just backspin with a tilted axis.
Word
 
OP
C

cypressperch

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Hey, I tried, but I came up a little short. But if what you folks are saying is correct about clubface at impact and how it interacts with the clubhead path, I am a God. I have the shot that goes right with the face closed and then it bends dramatically to the left. That ball is not going intially in the direction the clubface is facing. If the ball could talk, it would tell you that the clubhead path had a big impact on how it felt at impact, that the velocity of the hit mattered a whole lot, not just the position of the clubface at impact. And an open face relative to the clubhead path can NEVER produce a draw/hook or straight ball. It can only produce fade/slice spin and thus curvature that is left to right. That holds true whether the clubhead path is a pull, straight down the line, or a push. Best of luck to all with their game, Cypressperch
 

eclark53520

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Hey, I tried, but I came up a little short. But if what you folks are saying is correct about clubface at impact and how it interacts with the clubhead path, I am a God. I have the shot that goes right with the face closed and then it bends dramatically to the left. That ball is not going intially in the direction the clubface is facing. If the ball could talk, it would tell you that the clubhead path had a big impact on how it felt at impact, that the velocity of the hit mattered a whole lot, not just the position of the clubface at impact. And an open face relative to the clubhead path can NEVER produce a draw/hook or straight ball. It can only produce fade/slice spin and thus curvature that is left to right. That holds true whether the clubhead path is a pull, straight down the line, or a push. Best of luck to all with their game, Cypressperch
If the ball leaves the face to the right of your target line, your club face was open to the target line. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. What the ball does after that is decided by the club head path. If the path was inside to out based on a line perpendicular to the club face it will draw. If it was outside in it will fade. If it was square to the face it will be a straight ball but not on the target line.

Target line is a line through the ball and parallel to the line your feet make.
 

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