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Shawn Foley's Dramatic Revelations on How to Hit a Draw

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cypressperch

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An object at rest tends to stay at rest. If it is struck by an instrument , the head of which is traveling in a certain direction, the direction that head is traveling will have some impact on what direction the object at rest will start to move. The head on that implement does have a face, and the angle of that face will also have an impact on the direction the object at rest will travel. That angle will also determine the spin imparted on the object at rest, which incidentally, happens to be a golf ball. If the clubface is barely moving at impact, the ball will take the direction of the clubface. The higher the velocity, the more influence clubhead path will have on intitial ball flight direction. When the velocity slows down, the spin created by clubface position at impact has an increasing effect, and we get increasing curvature. OK, I know, I lied. I have been beating the dead mule too much. Cypressperch
 

eclark53520

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I understand your logic. I thought the same way, but its wrong.

Take face angle out of the equation. Assume the face will always be perpendicular to the target line.

Swing outside in the ball starts straight turns right and vice versa. There's no way around it. Will the ball move very slightly in the direction of the club path, sure but its not notable and its definitely not the main force behind the initial ball flight from impact.
 

anonymous golfaholic

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I see where you are coming from. I used to think the same thing and I'm the type of person who likes to get cute with ball flight, so it blew me away that I had been so successful at working the ball when my theory was wrong. Believe me, I scoured the internet for hours before I admitted I was incorrect.

Go get on a launch monitor and see for yourself. Or try it out with a putter on a slick floor.
 
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cypressperch

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I think the worse thing I have done is a poor job of describing what Shawn Foley was trying to say. I found nothing startling about his "new insights." I think some of you and me are on the exact same page. I also think that lots of folks close their clubface too much to ever get a nice little draw. This has probably been a boring experience for you guys. If you get the chance, read the Foley article in the latest issue of GD. That will make up for my short-comings. Sincerely, CP
 

anonymous golfaholic

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Lets say that a big ball is laying on a train track. And say, the front of the train is not flat but angled to the right of the tracks. What direction do you think that ball will go?

You may be referring to Newton's 1st law of motion, but you need to remember that the ball is not moving, the club is. Inertia will keep the club traveling in the same direction but that doesn't apply to the ball.
 

nututhugame

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Hey, I tried, but I came up a little short. But if what you folks are saying is correct about clubface at impact and how it interacts with the clubhead path, I am a God. I have the shot that goes right with the face closed and then it bends dramatically to the left. That ball is not going intially in the direction the clubface is facing. If the ball could talk, it would tell you that the clubhead path had a big impact on how it felt at impact, that the velocity of the hit mattered a whole lot, not just the position of the clubface at impact. And an open face relative to the clubhead path can NEVER produce a draw/hook or straight ball. It can only produce fade/slice spin and thus curvature that is left to right. That holds true whether the clubhead path is a pull, straight down the line, or a push. Best of luck to all with their game, Cypressperch
It's open face relative to the target line, not relative to swing path and you can still hit a draw. You're right that open relative to path =block. It is possible that at impact your club face is not as closed as you think to the target line, so it may be going in the direction the face is facing. The face may be closed relative to your alignment thus giving the illusion that it is closed to the target line, which would mean that you are lined up right to begin with. Can you dig it... SUCKAS! (Warriors reference).
 

SilverUberXeno

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Ball will start on a line perpendicular to the club face. This is really irrefutable. If you believe you are witnessing something else, your body is compensating for the imperfect understanding your mind has of collision dynamics. Lots of people think an open face is causing their slice too, but it isn't, unless it's a push-slice.

Try turning your putter way to the left. Hit the ball as hard as you want. It will never, ever start straight. The ball flattens against the club face when it is struck. When the club face strikes at an angle, one side of the ball is "flattened" more than the other, and the energy of the club head is redirected to a line perpendicular to the club face.

With a closed face, the outside of the ball is compressed more than the inside (relative to proximity to your body, outside is the farther side, inside is the closer side) so the ball will jump to where there is less pressure until a force equalization occurs. You guessed it, this is a line perpendicular to the club face.

Same goes for any sport I can think of where the ball is being struck by a flat object. Tennis, table tennis, even soccer (kicking). Bowling is not at all similar, as the ball is being released directly from the hand.

Edit: Sean was trying to indicate, I assume, that to hit a draw around something, EVERYTHING has to be open to the "target". Your swing path has to be well open, the club face slightly less open (closed to swing path, but still open to target.) that is accurate, and there are many for whom that would be shocking, I think.
 
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cypressperch

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Duh, you really mean that the ball is not moving? Yes, that would make a difference. I believe Newton had more than one law.

Anyway, I just got in from hitting some forty yard five irons in the front yard. I aimed at the tree at the end of that forty yards. First I lined up with the clubface square, Results: Straight shots right at the tree, hitting it a few times and close when I missed. Next, lined up my body at the tree with clubface square again. Then open the face considerably and regripped. Ball took off just about straight at the tree and missed it on the right side, but still pretty close to the edge of the tree. Then I lined up at the tree, closed the face to where it was aimed at MY HOUSE, and regripped. Swung the club as if trying to hit it with the clubhead path going at the tree. Ball started out somewhat to left of the tree, but it was nowhere near going at MY HOUSE. Those of you who believe that clubface angle at impact determines the initial direction of flight the ball will take would have been astonished at how close to the same direction ever shot went. There was close to a 90 degree difference between the most closed and the most open clubface at impact. I was striking these shots pretty hard, but from what some have said, I took it that you did not think that how hard the ball is struck matters. The ball has to go exactly in the direction the clubface is pointed, right? That is not what I observed.

I knew discussing whether the clubhead path or the clubface angle at impact most determines initial direction would be problematic. I talked about beating farks out of a dead mule, and I admit that I can be as stubborn as a mule. But the Foley article said right out that the clubface has to be open to hit a draw. He was talking about in relation to the target line, the line from ball to target which is not what is going on when you play any shot with curvature. Clubhead path is involved, and at impact, relative to clubhead path, the club has to be somewhat closed to produce a draw. Everyone here seems to be agreeing with that.

One last shot at muddying up the water. If we move from a wedge, club by club, all the way to the driver, is there any difference in the influence of clubface angle on initial ball flight? How about the influence of clubhead path on initial ball flight direction? What if we change the angle of attack? Do we get the same results or variations? Will changing from low to high compression balls have any effect?

Sincerely, Cypressperch
 
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cypressperch

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When your method of hitting a draw is to aim right with a closed clubface, you have a new target. It is a whole different animal from the straight line from ball to, lets say, the pin. If you like your club shaft parallel to the target line at the top of your swing, certainly you do not still want the shaft parallel to a line from the ball to the pin. You will want it parallel to the path you want the ball to travel on before the draw spin kicks in and you have draw curvature. Answer this question: Would you want the club shaft to be parallel to a perpendicular line drawn from the closed clubface at impact? If you did, I bet your club shaft would not be parallel at the top of your swing with the actual flight of the ball. I think your shaft would be laid off quite a bit. cypressperch
 
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cypressperch

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Of course, to be honest, there are different methods of producing various shot shapes. One common one is to place the clubface squarely on line with the target. If you want a slice, you open your stance and swing along your foot line. Or to get a hook, you put the clubface squarely on line with the target, close your stance and then swing along your foot line. At impact, your relationships end up being the same concerning clubface angle and clubhead path. This is probably how Foley shapes the ball thus talking so much about the target line. But when you open or close your stance, you have still gotten away from swinging based upon keeping everything square and parallel to the target line. Cypressperch
 

azgreg

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You guys think way to hard for me, and use to many big words. I just use the Jack Nicklaus system. For a draw I aim right of the target (body, swing path, everything) and then aim the club face to the target. For a fade I just do the opposite. Works for me. it is harder for me to hit the fadr as my normal ball flight is a draw (I do understand some swing path mechanics).
 

SilverUberXeno

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Anyway, I just got in from hitting some forty yard five irons in the front yard. I aimed at the tree at the end of that forty yards. First I lined up with the clubface square, Results: Straight shots right at the tree, hitting it a few times and close when I missed. Next, lined up my body at the tree with clubface square again. Then open the face considerably and regripped. Ball took off just about straight at the tree and missed it on the right side, but still pretty close to the edge of the tree. Then I lined up at the tree, closed the face to where it was aimed at MY HOUSE, and regripped. Swung the club as if trying to hit it with the clubhead path going at the tree. Ball started out somewhat to left of the tree, but it was nowhere near going at MY HOUSE. Those of you who believe that clubface angle at impact determines the initial direction of flight the ball will take would have been astonished at how close to the same direction ever shot went.

Sincerely, Cypressperch

You're not where you think you are at impact, dude. I promise. What you feel like you're doing is not the reality of what is happening between the club and the ball.

And no, there would be no measurable difference in terms of whether the ball starts perpendicularly to the club face between a driver or a wedge or a five iron. This is really universal. If you hood your 5i twenty degrees and commit to that, the ball is doing dead, dead, dead left and probably very low, and it WILL start perpendicular to the face angle of the club. You're too good a golfer to hit a shot like that. Your body is adjusting. The face is pointing where the ball starts every time, if you're making normal contact (not a shank)
 

SilverUberXeno

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You guys think way to hard for me, and use to many big words. I just use the Jack Nicklaus system. For a draw I aim right of the target (body, swing path, everything) and then aim the club face to the target. For a fade I just do the opposite. Works for me. it is harder for me to hit the fadr as my normal ball flight is a draw (I do understand some swing path mechanics).

If this thought works for you, I'm glad. But if you ever really accomplished what you intend to, you'd always miss. The ball would start at the target, and hook inside away from it. You are mentally overcompensating to make your body adjust its swing. That can work. The face is not actually pointing at the target at impact. If it were, it would start at the target.
 

azgreg

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I just can't think that much about the golf swing. I take a quick mental picture of what I want to happen, then try to put myself in the best position to to do it, and then pull the trigger.
 

BigJim13

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I just can't think that much about the golf swing. I take a quick mental picture of what I want to happen, then try to put myself in the best position to to do it, and then pull the trigger.
Agree. Except I can't hit a draw.
 

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