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Shawn Foley's Dramatic Revelations on How to Hit a Draw

OP
C

cypressperch

Well-Known Member
Jun 24, 2006
681
3
Toledo Bend Lake, Louisiana
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United States United States
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  • #31
White Tiger, if you were to do the same experiment as I described, and the ball did what I described it doing, would you think that somehow you were incapable of swinging at a target with closed, a square, and an open face? You gave it a really great try, but I have faith that John Jacobs has not been wrong after all his experience, nor the countless others that say the same thing. And I trust my own senses up to a point, and what I have seen matches what Jacobs has taught. So I will stick, for now, with my current position on this topic. Azgreg and BigJim13 probably have the right idea. Do something and if it works, don't think about it anymore, and just do it! Avoid "paralysis from analysis." I've been playing this great game for fifty-six years, and I know enough to know that I do not know it all. I doubt if anyone does or ever did, even Shawn O'Grady. Sincerely, Cypressperch
 

Augster

Rules Nerd
Supporting Member
Mar 9, 2005
1,473
23
CP,

Your small-scale experiment also has to bring D-plane into consideration. If you are hitting down on the ball, as you should with an iron, and your swing is to the left, the ball will take off straight and stay straight if the amount you are hitting down equals out with the amount you are swinging right to left.

It seems SUX has researched this quite a bit and is spot on. Youtube is your friend. Look up D-Plane and also the "New Ball Flight Laws". Also those laws should be on Trackman's website.
 

SilverUberXeno

El Tigre Blanco
Jul 26, 2005
4,620
26
White Tiger, if you were to do the same experiment as I described, and the ball did what I described it doing, would you think that somehow you were incapable of swinging at a target with closed, a square, and an open face?

Yes. Because the ball starts on a line perpendicular to the club face at impact. If I was attempting to hood the face, but the ball went straight, I failed to manipulate the face of the club the way I wanted to. I believe you're a very good golfer, and I believe that your body and mind have a unique way of compromising to hit good golf shots. But, physics is physics. Golf isn't magic.
 
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cypressperch

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Jun 24, 2006
681
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Toledo Bend Lake, Louisiana
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United States United States
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  • #34
OK, folks, you've done it! "Asked" about new ball flight rules and ended up at a site done by a fellow named Mann (Jeff?). As of now, I take back most of what I have said that was critical of Shawn Foley. As someone said in their post, it matters a lot when you hit down on a shot. It also matters a ton if you misshit the ball. How clubhead path and clubface position at impact effect shots is usually presented based upon the clubhead coming to the ball at zero degrees. Hitting down, which I was radically doing, when hitting shots gave a straighter shot path than if the club had come to the ball at that zero degee angle.

I was delighted to learn that clubface angle does not cancel out clubhead path totally. In fact clubhead path actually determines 15% of initial flight direction with clubface angle at impact accounting for a hefty 85% of initial flight direction. So hitting down on the shots, that 15% influence of clubhead path, and no doubt a certain amount of fear in my head that I might hit a ball at my own house combined to give me my results that "fit" my long-held beliefs.

Those beliefs were not spot on as I had come to believe. Trust me, it was not so much confidence in me as much as it was confidence that what great names in golf had said about the subject. I guess those folks, if still alive, will have to alter their thinking because of advances made in just the last ten years or so.

Some of my mistaken beliefs are not so much mistakes of logic as they are the mistake in the degree to which clubface position at impact determines initial ball flight direction. So when we go to our example of being behind a tree and wanting to get the ball on the green that is on the other side of the tree, we need to aim farther to the left than before (if we are going to slice it around said tree) and instead of positioning the face so that it faces the green, move that club face so it points considerable to the left of the green. These steps counter the 85% influence of the clubface on intitial ball flight direction, or put another way, the only 15% influence that clubhead path has on initial ball flight direction.

Folks, this is actually some very useful information. Why? I do shape shots when I play. And I am certain that when my draws have missed the green left, it was because I over-emphasized the role of clubhead path and under-emphasized the role of clubface angle at impact. Yes, all is dependent upon a correct swing being made through the ball. Also, just imagine what would happen if you were on an uneven lie, let's say ball above feet (hook producer) and you put the face too closed on top of that!

I may actually have been headed in a better direction since somewhere in all of this I stated that I thought golfers often were putting more angle in their clubface than they really needed. You need more clubhead path angle to keep the ball away from the obstacle, and less clubface angle because that angle has more influence that has been taught for a very long time.

Thanks to all for your patience with my intransigence and for presenting me with some improved concepts that should improve my shot-making and therefore scoring. Sincerely, Cypressperch
 
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cypressperch

Well-Known Member
Jun 24, 2006
681
3
Toledo Bend Lake, Louisiana
Country
United States United States
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  • #35
Hank Haney and all the others who talked about the nine shots in golf are still correct to present those nine shots. In general, folks teaching how to produce those nine shots were sort of correct, but they blew it by over-stressing the impact of clubhead path and under-stressing the impact of clubface angle at impact on initial direction of ball flight (and also how much curvature is produced or not produced as these variables change). Lastly, I am not certain that dwelling on the idea that the clubface is open when we hit a draw is really helpful, and correct me if I am wrong when I say, "A draw biased driver is made with a closed face because, relative to clubhead path, a closed face is what produces a draw." Sincerely, Cypressperch
 

SilverUberXeno

El Tigre Blanco
Jul 26, 2005
4,620
26
Thanks to all for your patience with my intransigence and for presenting me with some improved concepts that should improve my shot-making and therefore scoring. Sincerely, Cypressperch

This is really what I hoped for above all else. Perhaps you will have even better control of your game with a more complete understanding of the collision dynamics between the club head and the ball, and the resulting shot shapes from them. You've surely been outstanding with your prior knowledge, imagine what you'll be able to do now :)
 

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