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Short Game Distances - Carry and Roll

SilverUberXeno

El Tigre Blanco
Jul 26, 2005
4,620
26
PA, I think your method is MUCH more reliable than "Feel" unless a player gets to practice his "feel" for 10 hours a week.

It's just common sense, honestly. Knowing how far a half-swing (10:30) goes makes it SO much easier to judge getting a little more or a little less on either side of it, and it reduces the necessity of practicing the short game as often as we'd all like to.

If you, like PA, know how far a half-swing 60* goes, it is what it is. If you go by feel, you might be 7-8 yards off and call it a good shot.

All that "feel" is, is mechanics without the numbers. You're not thinking "this is my 10:30 swing", but by the time you feel the right swing- yes, it is your 10:30 swing, or your 9:00 swing, or whatever swing you used to hit that distance the last time you were faced with this shot.

Get some basic mechanics, like a half-swing number, then you can feel around from there. If you want to go pure feel and forget how to hit a shot a certain distance, you may succeed, it'll just take you a lot longer to get through 18 holes.
 
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Pa Jayhawk

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2005
7,196
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United States United States
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I don't think there is a disadvantage, unless you are prone to over-thinking shots.
Actually I think this is part of what attracts me to this method, as I think part of what made my "Feel" game go south was over thinking shots. It allows you to not think about the shot as much. When you are ready to execute the shot, it is already in black and white.

Which is 'feel', and that's the problem with the numerical strategy. The error bars caused by the variables are bigger than the differences between 1/2 and 1/4 swings, or between adjacent clubs. Not to mention that when I'm looking at a, say, 35y pitch, I generally have no idea if it is actually 30, 32, 35, or 36 yards. Each of which is a different shot with a different club on your chart. Talk about confusion! I just eyeball it, and try to play like a kid in their backyard... grab my wedge and try to hit it close.
Although I think the below quoted part kinda touched on how I feel about this.
All that "feel" is, is mechanics without the numbers. You're not thinking "this is my 10:30 swing", but by the time you feel the right swing- yes, it is your 10:30 swing, or your 9:00 swing, or whatever swing you used to hit that distance the last time you were faced with this shot.

Get some basic mechanics, like a half-swing number, then you can feel around from there. If you want to go pure feel and forget how to hit a shot a certain distance, you may succeed, it'll just take you a lot longer to get through 18 holes.
... to continue, It is not to say you don't still have "feel" for the shot, you just have numerical data to support your decision. Being a judge of distance or stepping it off is a whole other issue. The difference is that I am a good judge of distance to within a few yards. If there is indicision, taking 10 steps towards the green and comparing what you are looking at is not going to create a great deal of confusion. If I am half way to the green, 1/3 of the way to the pin, and 11 yards from my ball, that is pretty simple. I need to carry 22 yards and am roughly 33 yards to the pin. Plus over time of practicing this, you become a better and better judge of the distance and don't likely step off every yard on every pitch. I guess it might not be a good method for someone who is a poor judge of distance, or doesn't want to take the time to evaluate the distances of the shot.

One question I would have to ask for people who are insistent that the numbers will simply confuse your game. If playing by the concept that "feel" is a more acceptable and reliable method, why do most of those same players also know how far each club goes on full shots and relies on that distance. I really don't see how this differs. If I have 133 yards to the center of the green, with wind behind me, and a pin in the back with a 30 yard deep green......

Why isn't feel a more reliable method in full shot distance control. To say it is just to confusing to evaluate the data you have, yet still play your shot doesn't make sense to me. I have 22 yards to the front of the green with a green that breaks back to front. So, I know I need to take a club that will carry at least 22 yards and have enough roll to account for the back to front green slowing down the ball. (Assuming that is the best place to land the ball)


Do you putt by feel, or you do have a distance chart?
I putt entirely by feel, although I evaluate the other conditions that will affect the putt. The difference is I am a very successful putter, and therefore see no need to change. I think for a person to say they putt entirely by feel would be one that simply steps up to the ball and hits it. I think you need to separate the evaluation of data and how you actually make the stroke. When you are putting and see a ball is breaking right to left or downhill, I would have a hard time saying I "Feel" that part. That is simply evaluation of data. Now how you react to the data is another story. While I am concise, relaxed and consistent with my putting stroke to the point where it is almost a reaction, and would call my self a "Feel" putter because it does not feel mechanical, it is not to say I didn't scientifically evaluate the data. I'm not sure this is really any different. I evaluate the data, and comfortable and confident in an ingrained stroke, and make the shot accordingly. It is actually a less "Mechanical" stroke than the one I used with feel. It probably wouldn't work for someone who can't separate the evaluation of the data from the stroke.

To me though, that seems like a large part of golf and why people say it is 80% mental. Again, if I have a 133 yards to the center of the green, I am not going to try and make a 133 yard swing with my 4w, I haven't ingrained that "Feel". However, I know what club I can hit pretty close to 133 yards with my normal swing.

All about picking the most reliable option, and because I have always been a scientific person in my evaluation of things, I am very good at knowing when the evaluation of the data is over and getting in the way, and when it is time to now make a swing you have ingrained. Just like putting, if I am still evaluating the break or anything but speed when I am standing over the ball, I am going to miss the putt. I know once I am over the ball, I should have already evaluated all the data, it is now time to simply get the ball to the hole. Actually though, while I consider my putt the most "Feel" part of my game, just by nature it is also the only part of my game where I am still thinking about something (Speed) when I stand over the ball. Although it is more of a natural thought that clears my mind. So it is the most "Feel" part of my game and in my reasoning likely only because it is the part that comes most natural. If I didn't have that natural feel, who is to say I would putt better with distance charts and graphs based on the swing I make.

Kinda like in the one thread where my comment was, and I truly believe that I am both a Mechanical and Feel player in the same shot. Once I know what club and technique required to make a specific shot based on the data, it is simply time to clear the mind and make the shot.
 

David Hillman

Well-Known Member
Apr 15, 2008
836
0
Pa Jayhawk said:
One question I would have to ask for people who are insistent that the
numbers will simply confuse your game. If playing by the concept that
"feel" is a more acceptable and reliable method, why do most of those
same players also know how far each club goes on full shots and relies
on that distance. I really don't see how this differs. If I have 133
yards to the center of the green, with wind behind me, and a pin in
the back with a 30 yard deep green......
Why isn't feel a more reliable method in full shot distance control.
To say it is just to confusing to evaluate the data you have, yet
still play your shot doesn't make sense to me. I have 22 yards to the
front of the green with a green that breaks back to front. So, I know
I need to take a club that will carry at least 22 yards and have
enough roll to account for the back to front green slowing down the
ball. (Assuming that is the best place to land the ball)

Two reasons, for me anyway. In the fairway ( or rough ), ironically, I usually have better data about the distance to the green than I do in the 20-60 yard neighborhood. Most courses around here have yardage markers at 100/150/200, plus sprinkler heads in between. I either walk right past a marker, or sometimes am in a GPS-equipped cart, so I have a good idea of the specific yardage. But once I'm inside about 60 yards, there are no markers, so unless I want to pace it off, which I never do, I'm just guessing at the yardage.

The second reason is that over 80 yards, I'm making a full swing with some club. Under that, it's a partial swing regardless of which club I pick. For example, if I have 162 in, I'm hitting 6i. But if I have 62, that's either a 3/4 SW, 1/2 PW, or a 1/2 7i bump. I have more choices, and I'm going to pick the one that feels right at the time.
 

mddubya

Hybrid convert
Nov 6, 2007
6,029
2
Anything inside of 20 yards and I'm locking my wrist and using my putting stroke with either my PW or 8i, depending on the terrain. If I'm in the rough and need to fly it to the green all the way I'll use the PW, but if I'm in the fairway I'll bump and run it with the 8i. I bought some of those yellow foam golf balls and practice this in the living room. This has probably shaved more strokes off my scores than anything else I've done. The days I'm on I can chip in one or two and lag the rest up close for a tap in. The days I'm slightly off I'm still close enough for a one putt, two at worse.

From 20 yards out to 75 yards I'm using my 60º wedge and adjusting my swing accordingly. I've never read Pelz's book, mainly because of hearing how it's overly technical from most everyone here on Shottalk.

65-95 yards I'm using my 56º and adjusting my swing.

95- 115 yards I use my 52º

110-125 yards I grab the PW


And yes I know the yardages are overlapping somewhat. It's those few yards in between that are depending on my lie and the wind. And how I'm hitting the ball that particular day. :D
 
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Pa Jayhawk

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2005
7,196
62
Country
United States United States
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  • #20
Two reasons, for me anyway. In the fairway ( or rough ), ironically, I usually have better data about the distance to the green than I do in the 20-60 yard neighborhood. Most courses around here have yardage markers at 100/150/200, plus sprinkler heads in between. I either walk right past a marker, or sometimes am in a GPS-equipped cart, so I have a good idea of the specific yardage. But once I'm inside about 60 yards, there are no markers, so unless I want to pace it off, which I never do, I'm just guessing at the yardage.
Giving this some thought, it is hard to say if my situation were different, how my thoughts on my philosophy may change. Really the time constraint is the one factor I see that would allow my willingness to use this. Well, that and the practice time. There are two factors that contribute to willingness to use this, that under different circumstance I may not simply because it could make the actual game less enjoyable.

First is that I have a GPS and a Range Finder. The second being that in our area, most of the courses require the use of a cart due to the terrain. So outside of the initial green vicinity, I will usually use a GPS or Range Finder. When I take the cart around and walk to my ball up by the green, I usually have the option to step off any distances in the process of deciding what type of shot I want to hit.

Although I bargain to guess, that just like using a GPS, this has made me a much better judge of distances so I almost think at this point my guess would be with a couple yards. Which many times now is what I do. If I can guess within a couple yards, that is usually acceptable for my level of play, as well as my ability to make the putt. Just like from 133 yards, I just want to hit the green. From 30 yards, while making the pitch would be great, just getting within 5 feet is very acceptable. Many time prior to changing to this method, I was starting to evaluate it as again "Just hitting the green" would be good, and that need to change.

Plus there is always the other option that you mention. While the approach is kind of scientific, it is what you make of the process. So if just as one would as a feel player, there is nothing that says you must have the exact distance every shot and just as with a feel player, there is some times a little (or lot of) guess work in the process. Kinda like if I am somewhere between 25-40 yards from the edge of the green, and I am not confident I know the distance, I will usually walk about 10 steps towards the green and guess the rest. I wouldn't enjoy the game if I were to burden the rest of my foresome if they are waiting for me trying to step off every shot. On the other hand, if I am waiting I may put a little more into the evaluation. Just like if I am out in the fairway with no markers, you just have to use what you have access to and move on. I actually think this is another positive for me, as we tend to have to wait a bit up here. This gives me something to occupy my mind and still stay in a golf frame of mind.

So just because the numbers are pretty precise, it doesn't mean I am going to need to know the exact yardage, as doing that every time may very likely take away from the enjoyment of the game. Just like when I am out in the fairway, I get enough information to meet the expectations for my game. Overall, I figure my guesswork will put me within a range where I can get up and down the majority of the time I execute the shot properly. To me, if it ever became a process that consistently took longer to get any kind of distance during the process of figuring out the type of shot I want to hit, it would probably then be more of a distraction and reliant on guesswork, but up to now, you can usually get a fairly accurate distance in the few seconds it takes to prepare for the type of shot you want. Say on short shots, walk halfway to the green measuring the distance, do a quick 2 second calculation and figure out the shot you want while walking back, drop the clubs that don't meet that need and hit the shot. It actually tends to leave me with a very uncluttered mind when I hit the shot.
 

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