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Swings that are overly straight

Highdraw34

Well-Known Member
Mar 27, 2006
300
0
As I often do on days where I am not busy at work I headed to the driving range for about an hour. I hit a small bucket with only my driver. My goal was to focus on the keys mentioned in the first post in this thread and the breaking 80 tips from Fred Funk on Golfdigest.com. Once I grooved the less handsy swing and the tips from Funk I hit some shots that only could have dreamed of. My Driver has been so horrible lately that it is raising my blood pressure. The drives i hit today where HIGHHHHHHHHH AND STRAIGHT. But best of all they were LOOOOOOOONG. I was hitting balls that carried about 280 and sat as pretty as a dove when they landed. My biggest problem is transitioning a swing epiphany from the range to the course. I have a lot of confidence in this new ball flight and swing. If this works out I am going to be forever endebted to cypressperch and Freddy Funkaliscious.
 

dave.

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2005
5,926
2
"STARTING THE ARMS DOWN WHILE THE BACK IS STILL FACING THE TARGET ALLOWS YOU TO GET THE CLUB IN POSITION TO ATTACK THE BALL FROM THE INSIDE. IF YOU DO NOT DO THIS, YOU GO OVER THE TOP, COME OUTSIDE TO INSIDE AT TOO STEEP AN ATTACK ANGLE, AND HIT A SLICE."



No offence,but that is one of the worst pieces of advice I have ever read.You are basically advising that a player hits from the top? Or have I misunderstood you?

Passive arms is more relative to the one planers,and is particularly pertinent to Hogan's technique,but even a 2 plane swing guru would not advise starting the backswing with the arms.

You must always be turing during a swing,and the arms lag behind due to the centrifugal foces created by the bottom half initiating the downswing,followed by the shoulders,then the arms,which stay passive creating lag,you can then hits as hard as you like,but not from the top as you suggest.If a beginner read that you could wreck their swing for weeks.

If I have misunderstood you,then apologies,but at the very least that statement needs explaining further,to help those than have gone away and are starting to hit with their arms while they still have a full shoulder turn,which I repeat,imho,thats not good advice at all.

I am not saying you can't throw the arms from the top,some teachers have discussed this at length,such a Jim Hardy,but its a complicated area and requires an element of knowledge from the player.The key is the body turn,hit hard with the body and the arms can be thrown hard from the top.This is his view,not mine.But as I say,advising someone to start with the arms without discussing the turn is crazy.
 
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cypressperch

Well-Known Member
Jun 24, 2006
681
3
Toledo Bend Lake, Louisiana
Country
United States United States
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  • #18
No apology necessary, Dave!

First, when you wrote that no one would teach one to start the backswing with their arms, I take it you meant downswing, right?

As I wrote, I left out the role of the hips. I really was writing about the arms and shoulders isolated from the rest of the body. My subject was to get golfers, especially beginners, to realize that they will be mistaken if they try to get the clubhead to be moving on the target line very long before and after impact. If they will keep connected (arms to torso which includes the shoulders), a proper, somewhat rounded arc will be made by the clubhead. The club head will come inside the target line eventually as the club goes back and then up with the coiling of the shoulders. The shoulders then uncoil with the club first coming down so that the club will find the position from which the clubhead comes to the target line/ball from the inside. The club FACE automatically opens going back, and then automatically closes to square with the target line/ball coming back to and through the ball. And very soon after impact, we should continue allowing the shoulders to naturally determine the path of the clubhead, and doing so will have the clubhead come inside the target line soon after impact. Many beginning golfers are manipulating the club in the effort to get the club face square to the target line early and keep it there late thinking such will insure a straight ball flight. The only club that this works on is the putter, and then only if you have your eyes over the ball and go straight back and straight through.

You and I are on the same page, acutally. I believe this is true when you talk of the proper sequence of the various body parts. As I mentioned, I left out the hips in the piece I wrote since I was primarily concerned with the clubhead path, the club face, and how we can leave all that to the shoulder turn. I believe that, in general, this applies to both one and two plance swings. (I actually do not believe that a great breakthrough occurred when Hardy or whoever made the distinctions in these types. It created more confusion than any thing else. I have created some confusion, but I have not written a whole book!).

The first thing that moves in the swing will be the clubhead and of course the hands and arms (the triangle) have to move for the club and clubhead to move. The shoulders will turn. The hips will turn. There is some movement of the legs. The last thing that moves if you allow it will be the left heel coming up slightly, especially with the driver. So the backswing, sort of, begins with the clubhead moving first and the left heel moving last. On the downswing the whole thing is reversed. I personally like pressing down on the left heel to start my downswing. I do not try to start the downswing with this pressing down before the back swing is completed though I know that can increase lag and create a greater difference between the hip turn and the shoulder turn creating more power potential. I sacrifice this because in my swing, finishing the back-swing completely is so crucial, I do not want to risk the chance of not completing the backswing to pick up a few extra yards.

The pressing down of the left heel happens while the back, after a complete backswing is still facing the target. The hips start their turn (I know about the lateral bump to the left of the left hip, but I do not think too much about that because it usually promotes a slide to the left. The idea of hitting the ball "parallel left" is so fully embedded in my golfing conscious that the hips move a little left, but very quickly (before they can slide too far) I want them turning so the lower part of my body gets out of the way! After the hips, the shoulders start to uncoil. BEFORE THE SHOULDERS UNCOIL VERY MUCH, I WANT MY ARMS COMING DOWN. This is why I digressed from my arc discussion, sort of. The arms coming down, is certainly not the beginning of the downswing sequence. It is more near the last thing to move coming down than near the first. But they still must start coming down while the back is still facing the target. If they do not, the chance of getting the clubhead in position to come to the ball from the inside will be lost.

What about the cocking and uncocking of the wrist? Still trying to let Nature do as much of the swing as I can, I prefer to let the wrists respond naturally to the weight of the club. The only time I try to apply power is after the club has been brought down to where the from-the-inside attack is possible. I like starting the downswing slow which makes finding this position a lot easier. Thinking of gravity bringing the club down is a good thought on this.

I have a feeling that you may be at least a little more comfortable with the stuff I wrote earlier. I certainly agree with what you wrote. Sincerely, Cypressperch
 

Highdraw34

Well-Known Member
Mar 27, 2006
300
0
Well I took your advice out on the course for nine holes yesterday. Let me start out by telling you my driving horror over the last few weeks. After playing my best round about 3 weeks ago I finally found that everything was coming around. I have just finished reading 5 lessons and was feeling good about my swing. After that round I just couldn't hit my driver. I know the fundamentals of the swing but I just couldn't do it. Reading your post yesterday reinforced the fundamentals, espescially some of the ones that I have been sleeping on. So the nine I played yesterday had 6 holes that called for driver to be hit. I play this course often and for the last few weeks I would usually hit 1 or two fairways if I was lucky. I would also hit one or two balls OB. Here is my breakdown of the Six drives.

Hole #1 333 yard par 4. I hit a beautiful draw about 295 that hugged the right side of the fairway for most of its flight and then curled back to the middle of the fairway about 45 yards from the stick.

Hole #2 496 Yard par 5 with a fairway that thins to 28 yards wide from 260-290 out, guarded by a bunker on the right. I hit virtually the exact same drive as I did on #1 I aimed poorly and hit the bunker about 270 out. My fault, not the swings fault.

Hole #4 525 yard Monster of a par 5. Hit the same exact drive but didn't quite compensate enough for the draw. Trickled into the rough about a foot off the fairway about 270 out.

Hole #6 404 yard par 4. Smoked a drive straight with a little bit lower ball flight and hit the fairway, the ball hit a sidehill and trickled the rough again about 275 out.

Hole #7 350 Par 4. Put a very easy swing on it and hit it high and straight. Best swing of the day. 260 out dead straight in the fairway.

Hole #8 370 yard Par 4 uphill. I usually don't hit driver here because the fairway is very narrow and there is a middle bunker about 240 out and a bunker on the right about 265 out. I was feeling my oats so I hit the driver one more time and it went straight as an arrow 275 carry dead smack in the middle of the fairway.

So I had a great day with the driver. While your thread may have been aimed at those just starting out. It also helps experienced players to remeber the fundamentals. I found it to be a great mid season lesson.
 

danielson2047

Well-Known Member
Jun 21, 2006
33
0
great advice! I'm just starting out, been playin for almost 3 months now, and after reading your post realized i was trying to take the club head back on straight a line as possible. maybe this is why the only club i could hit was a 7 iron and sometimes my driver. i'm gonna hit the range and try to just turn and not force anything, be natural. thanks much!!!
 

Highdraw34

Well-Known Member
Mar 27, 2006
300
0
Day two of ingraining these thoughts into my swing and amazing things are happening. I'm still pushing a drive every once in a while but I'm pushing it about 20 yards instead of totaling drilling it off the hole. Most of my drives are very very consistant and very very straight. I'm also noticing a very different ball flight on the shots where I do everything right. They go out about 200 yards on a constant plane and then they shoot up at about 250. They then land softly at about 275-280. For me this is great. I'm sure it will take months for this to become perfectly natural but man does it feel great. Scores will drop, Scores will drop for sure.
 
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cypressperch

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Jun 24, 2006
681
3
Toledo Bend Lake, Louisiana
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United States United States
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  • #22
About the pushed shots

When you start the driver back, allow the club to go on the target line a foot or so before the shoulder turn naturally brings the clubhead inside the target line. This will help to keep the club from getting "too far behind you." I have talked about swings that are overly straight, and I think that is the most common problem, but if we bring the club inside the target line too soon, we will make the swing overly round. If you come back to the target from too far inside, a push is a likely result. You have not quite got the club back to square.

Remember also that after impact, the clubhead soon comes back to the inside. We have all heard that we should hit through the ball. This is indeed a TRUISM. But the clubhead path is still something of an arc. We will have a lot of pushed shots if we come to the ball from the inside and do not release the club back to the inside of the target line almost immediately after impact.

We have heard the phrase "trust your swing" and we have been advised to "just do it." These two phrases are telling us NOT to try to think during our swings. The conscious thinking part of the brain uses words and this slows things down so much that the conscious thinking part of the brain is nearly useless in the execution of a shot. About all you can do is think of a single helpful word such as "smooth." It is the subconscious that executes the swing without verbal thought. But the subconsious needs a correct mental image of the swing path to execute the shot correctly. It needs to "know" that the clubhead will come to the ball from the inside with the clubface closing as it approaches the ball as a natural result of the uncoiling of the shoulders. The club face will be square at impact. Immediately after impact (the ball is already gone just that quick!) the club head will come to the inside with the club face still closing because the clubface is always perpendicular to the arc it is describing as determined by the movement of the shoulders. A map allows one to travel without stopping at intersections wondering where to go. The mental picture of the arc made by the clubhead is like the map to the subconscious. When it knows where it is going, it can produce a very smooth, forceful swing that produces both accuracy and power. True we must swing through the ball rather than striking at the ball sitting a certain spot, but the clubhead path used to swing through the area the ball just happens to be in needs to be the correct path. It is not overly straight, and to avoid a push, the path is not to be overly rounded (club brought inside too soon) either. Think Aristotle, The Golden Mean and avoid the extremes.

Continued success with your game. Sincerely, Cypressperch

Finally, if you still have a push and your alinement (including shoulders, not just feet) is good, it almost has to be a question of Timing. If your hips turn too quickly before your shoulder turn, your arms (attached as they are to the shoulders) will be late to move and you will not be able to get the club face square to the line. It will be open or aimed to the right, and a push can happen. This is also likely to be why shots are somewhat to the right though hit pretty good. To solve this timing problem, you can get the hips and shoulders better synchronized in the proper sequence, by thinking of bringing the hands down at the beginning of the down-swing. This has the effect of allowing the shoulders and arms a head start of sorts on the hips. In actuallity, the hips had "jumped the gun" and this will get things back to where they should have been. The hips will still fire before the shoulders and arms, but they will not be allowed to get such a big head start.

If you ever get to where the ball is going left of the target line, this too can be a timing problem. The solution is to get the hips turning quickly so that the shoulders and arm-swing do not get ahead. If they get ahead the clubface will be closed and/or the club head path will be to the the left.

Remember that when you have these new ideas pretty well under control, shots off line will almost always be the result of errors in timing, PROVIDED YOU ARE CORRECTLY ALINED.
 

dave.

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2005
5,926
2
Thanks for the earlier expanation:)

"Remember that when you have these new ideas pretty well under control, shots off line will almost always be the result of errors in timing, PROVIDED YOU ARE CORRECTLY ALINED."


I would add to that posture and grip
 

FKA19

winter ho'in
May 21, 2006
1,202
0
FKA Pa Jayhawk said:
Although after seeing what Sling did to guys like 19 when he was messing around, he on the other hand kind of concerns me if he makes threats.
i screwed around a little, but i sure as hell didnt make any threats.. anyways ... your the same jayhawk as on GR right ?
 

Pa Jayhawk

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Nov 15, 2005
7,196
62
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19handicap said:
i screwed around a little, but i sure as hell didnt make any threats.. anyways ... your the same jayhawk as on GR right ?
Refering to when Sling makes threats, I certainly wouldn't want to be in the way if he gets pissed on the internet, or have him pissed at me. I always admired his theories on impaling the offenders for all to see. Keeps it nice on here.

GR???
 

David B

Nuttier than a Squirrel
Apr 21, 2005
202
0
I think 'GR' means golfreview.

cypressperch said:
I participated in the Golf Digest instruction forum for years, but for whatever reason, it was terminated.

I could tell you why it was terminated... it made the golfreview forums look like the pinnacle of civility and politeness.

I 'tried' participating at the Golf Digest forums a few times, but mostly people were extremely rude and had more fun telling people off than giving them good advice... you were definitely wasting your time there, as was anybody else actually trying to offer valuable information.

Welcome to Shot Talk, however, where, as you can already tell, your experience is much more appreciated. :)
 

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