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The Great Gun Debate

Nikonut

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Apr 24, 2008
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N. Texas
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United States United States
Full auto weapons, are very usefull, if you are selling lots of drugs, and need to keep the other gangbangers away. indeed the more guns and firepower the better.


one might even think that 99% of the "gun problem" could be related to the drug trade.
hmm. hmmm. hmmmmm.
 

BigJim13

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Aug 13, 2006
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Do remember that the 2nd amendment is mainly there to protect the people of this country from the government.

Actually the 2nd amendment was written so that citizens could "keep and bear arms" for the purpose of forming a militia to HELP the government in times of need.

It reads like this:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed
 

Clugnut

Gimme some roombas!
Aug 13, 2006
3,423
1
Actually the 2nd amendment was written so that citizens could "keep and bear arms" for the purpose of forming a militia to HELP the government in times of need.

It reads like this:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed

Depends on how you read it. I always took it as "So the citizen can restore individual rights from a tyrannical government" I believe this is original intent.
 

DouginGA

dont tread on me
Dec 8, 2005
913
0
Actually the 2nd amendment was written so that citizens could "keep and bear arms" for the purpose of forming a militia to HELP the government in times of need.

It reads like this:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed


Jim, Who but a government can pose a real threat to a free state?
 

FATC1TY

Taylormade Ho' Magnet
May 29, 2008
2,878
0
Big Jim..

Actually when it was written, they took it for this, included..

* deterring undemocratic government;
* repelling invasion;
* suppressing insurrection;
* facilitating a natural right of self-defense;
* participating in law enforcement;
* slave control in Southern slave states.


Beyond that, it was more for the individual states and/or militias who were Patriots who favored independence over British rule.

-------

All talking points aside.. Banning guns is pointless. Stricter law.. is pointless. Those who use guns for means of self-defense and protection will ONLY be the ones subject to those laws and regulations. Criminals for while the people protect themselves from, will never be subject to those regulations. They will always find a way to get what they want, and cut the law out of the picture.

Some people want to control their own lives, and protect their own. Others, don't. Others feel that nothing is worth harming or killing someone over. I can respect that, and understand to an extent that point.

I can kill you with a rock, should that be regulated? A car? A backhoe? What about a 2x4? Should we limit the size and density of industrial lumber now?

What about a tire iron? I've seen the destruction a tire-iron can do.. Maybe we should not be allowed to change our own tires?

Toothbrush? Yeah, I'm sure I've seen those taken up in prison because they instantly became 6" blades and pointed object that cut men to the bone.

Which brings up the personal responsibility of people. Irresponsible people SHOULD NOT have a weapon. Thats my opinion. However, irresponsible people have a RIGHT to have a weapon. If they qualify, and meet the mandated requirements. Have at it.

It's no different than saying.. Poor and lazy people shouldn't have children. They should be banned from producing another leech on society. Is that a proper way to fix the problem? Certainly not. No one should be told they can't have a child, or should be banned from having a family because they are deemed "un-fit" for said situation. If they were someone who sucks the taxes from your paycheck, brings down the neighborhood, and teaches their kids to lie and steal from those.. It's still their right to have kids, regardless of how YOU feel about them having kids.

People then argue, it's for the children.. Should we ban swimming pools then? Children are more likely to die in a swimming pool than they are with an accidental discharge of a firearm. "In a given year, there is one drowning of a child for every 11,000 residential pools in the United States. In a country with 6 million pools, this means that roughly 550 children under the age of ten drown each year. Meanwhile, there is 1 child killed by a gun for every 1 million-plus guns. In a country with an estimated 200 million guns, this means that roughly 175 children under ten die each year from guns. The likelihood of death by pool (1 in 11,000) versus death by gun (1 in a million plus) isn't even close: Molly is roughly 100 times more likely to die in a swimming pool accident at Suzy's house than in gunplay at Rick's."

What it all boils down to, is that both sides of the arguement have talking point that can be twisted and turned. People use the arguement that their country doesn't allow handguns, that they are banned. Yet people still die for handgun accidents and are robbed and murdered with handguns. What was accomplished? No one can protect themselves but are told that they don't need to because no one has anything to hurt them. It's a totalitarian government at work.

I chaulk it up to experiences growing up as well. I'm not afraid of a gun. We own several. We take the precautions in owning them, cleaning them, and using them. Everyone in my home, owns a gun. We all have permits and training to carry one in any form and fashion we choose. I can conceal it, or openly carry it. We train with them, and enjoy recreation with them. There is nothing better than for me and my girl to go shoot 200-300 rds at the range, and challenge each others marksmenship, or go to our IDPA matches and try and out do each other.

When done, we both tuck our guns away on our bodies, and continue our days unknowing to anyone around us. We aren't some un-responsible hacks, or trailer trash rednecks. Infact, you'd probably never know I had a weapon on me, and I choose to present myself like that.

Crazy? Sure... But knowing that me and mine is safe and under my watch, makes me feel content. The police have no duty to protect me from violence and attacks, they are there to clean up the mess and write the papers.
 

BigJim13

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Aug 13, 2006
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Jim, Who but a government can pose a real threat to a free state?

That's very true, but what constitutes a government. Would terrorist organizations be considered a government? They are at least as threatening to our peace and livelihood as say North Korea-just on a different level.

Depends on how you read it. I always took it as "So the citizen can restore individual rights from a tyrannical government" I believe this is original intent.

This is also true but you have to look at the context and times in which the Declaration of Independence and later the Constitution was written. I would argue that our forefathers knew what was coming (Revolutionary War) and knew the condition of our army (scattered, not well trained or organized) and could see that having a militia in every town was going to be a crucial piece to the revolution and later the founding and keeping of our freedom.
 

BigJim13

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Aug 13, 2006
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Big Jim..

Actually when it was written, they took it for this, included..

* deterring undemocratic government;
* repelling invasion;
* suppressing insurrection;
* facilitating a natural right of self-defense;
* participating in law enforcement;
* slave control in Southern slave states.


Beyond that, it was more for the individual states and/or militias who were Patriots who favored independence over British rule.

-------

Edit 1-just noticed I worked my points from the bottom up off your list, my first point addressed your last! Sorry!


So my question would be this, what of the points mentioned above actually still apply today?

  1. Slavery is outlawed​
  2. We have our own police force whether it be a constible or acutal Police dept.​
  3. you could make a case for self defense​
  4. I would say that surpressing insurection would fall to the national guard or local police.​
  5. repelling an invasion-you could make that argument as well but in today's world whatever country invades us is going to be less worried about me and my hunting rifle than the US Army with an M1 tank.​
  6. Deterring an undemocratic govt, see my point above. You going after the US Govt with you 30-06, they come at you with an Apache-game over.​
 

Clugnut

Gimme some roombas!
Aug 13, 2006
3,423
1
That's very true, but what constitutes a government. Would terrorist organizations be considered a government? They are at least as threatening to our peace and livelihood as say North Korea-just on a different level.



This is also true but you have to look at the context and times in which the Declaration of Independence and later the Constitution was written. I would argue that our forefathers knew what was coming (Revolutionary War) and knew the condition of our army (scattered, not well trained or organized) and could see that having a militia in every town was going to be a crucial piece to the revolution and later the founding and keeping of our freedom.


The Constitution was written after the Revolutionary War.
 

TheTrueReview

"Playing it straight"
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Jan 8, 2009
8,204
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Australia Australia
i wish i had a few. sometimes i feel like going down to the mall and just letting loose. even a school would do.

Absolutely NVM. ... and while we're at it, let's raise a few more home grown militias. You can never have too much of that safe feeling when you know your neighbour's oiling up his M16, AK47 or Uzi. ;)

Unfortunately [?], I live in a democracy with strict gun control and relative low crime. Since strict gun controls were implemented after the lunatic Martin Bryant shot 56 people one afternoon in 1996 (Martin Bryant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), many arguments against gun control have been completely disproved. Foremost, has been the myth that if citizens are deprived of guns, they'll be in mortal danger to armed criminals. Puh-lease.

Footnote: this isn't a 'my country is better than your country' post. It's about sensible gun control.
 

fisher

Well-Known Member
Nov 16, 2008
1,263
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Actually the 2nd amendment was written so that citizens could "keep and bear arms" for the purpose of forming a militia to HELP the government in times of need.

It reads like this:


A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed


Obviously you have never read the writings of our founding fathers with regards to their views on government and armed citizens.
 

fisher

Well-Known Member
Nov 16, 2008
1,263
0
If you banned all guns you would have people in basement and garage machine shops pumping out illegal guns like crazy. Making guns and ammunition is not rocket science.

In my youth I tinkered with gunsmithing and reloaded thousands and thousands of rounds for rifles, pistols and shotguns. Grew up in a house with no less than 20 firearms. Fired my first .22 at 4 years old. At 8 years old I got my own BB gun. At 12 I got my first shotgun and a hunting license and was murder on the local rabbit squirrel and quail population. At 15 shot my first of I forget how many deer. Went thru one period of time where I got addicted to sporting clays and was shooting over 250 rounds of 12 guage per week.

Somehow I never killed anybody or had the inkling to. Never met a gun enthusiast who killed anybody either. I also have never seen a gun that was capable of picking itself up off a table and firing itself all on its own. People are evil, guns are not.
 

BigJim13

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Aug 13, 2006
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The Constitution was written after the Revolutionary War.

Yes, I know. But the events and years leading up to the Declaration and then LATER the Constitution all played into the forming of the amendments. That's what I was saying.
 

BigJim13

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Aug 13, 2006
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Obviously you have never read the writings of our founding fathers with regards to their views on government and armed citizens.

I guess I don't understand where you're going with this. I pulled the text from the actual 2nd amendment as it was written...I'm not sure what you mean.
 

BigJim13

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Moderator
Aug 13, 2006
11,840
3,154
If you banned all guns you would have people in basement and garage machine shops pumping out illegal guns like crazy. Making guns and ammunition is not rocket science.

In my youth I tinkered with gunsmithing and reloaded thousands and thousands of rounds for rifles, pistols and shotguns. Grew up in a house with no less than 20 firearms. Fired my first .22 at 4 years old. At 8 years old I got my own BB gun. At 12 I got my first shotgun and a hunting license and was murder on the local rabbit squirrel and quail population. At 15 shot my first of I forget how many deer. Went thru one period of time where I got addicted to sporting clays and was shooting over 250 rounds of 12 guage per week.

Somehow I never killed anybody or had the inkling to. Never met a gun enthusiast who killed anybody either. I also have never seen a gun that was capable of picking itself up off a table and firing itself all on its own. People are evil, guns are not.

Shooting clays is great fun and one of the best stress relievers I have ever found.

Banning guns is kinda a silly argument, its not going to happen, it would be like asking to ban Alcohol or Tobacco, to much $$ involved in it to just do away with it.

The fact of the matter is that no matter how many laws are on the books the guys walking around committing crimes are still going to be able to get guns. I don't know that having a gun in every house makes it safer though...
 

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