The thing that everyone not in love with Tiger is thinking...

[figjam]

Tiger didn't get the job done, but there's a big difference to how he played and a choke. He started 7 shots back and never really got into a position to choke. Those bogies were made on 17 and 18 because Tiger was way behind and needed to really press to make birdie. I'd bet if he could have swapped places with Perry he would have parred both holes for an easy win. Perry choked, Campbell choked and Phil choked. All those guys made huge mistakes from easy positions to throw it away. Tiger's misses on 17 and 18 were from errant tee shots, which anyone can do on tough driving holes like those two. Tiger also didn't putt well all week so missing the eagle on 15 wasn't out of character. Phil mised tiddlers on 15 and 17 that he would have expected to make. Campbell and Perry both missed greens from the middle of the fairway, and Perry hooked a 6 iron way left after hitting his irons solid all day. They are chokes.

 

[LeftyHoges]

Tiger didn't get the job done, but there's a big difference to how he played and a choke. He started 7 shots back and never really got into a position to choke. Those bogies were made on 17 and 18 because Tiger was way behind and needed to really press to make birdie. I'd bet if he could have swapped places with Perry he would have parred both holes for an easy win. Perry choked, Campbell choked and Phil choked. All those guys made huge mistakes from easy positions to throw it away. Tiger's misses on 17 and 18 were from errant tee shots, which anyone can do on tough driving holes like those two. Tiger also didn't putt well all week so missing the eagle on 15 wasn't out of character. Phil mised tiddlers on 15 and 17 that he would have expected to make. Campbell and Perry both missed greens from the middle of the fairway, and Perry hooked a 6 iron way left after hitting his irons solid all day. They are chokes.

I can't deny that Tiger would have parred the last two holes were he in Perry's shoes, because he would have. But the pure fact of the matter is he WAS well and truly in contention after his birdie on 16 and probably only needed 1 birdie on the last two holes to post a very competitive total that would have had all those finishing pretty much shi#*ing themselves.

And I don't see how you can possibly say that Phil choked and Tiger didn't. Yes, Phil missed two shorter putts but they were both from above the hole and had break in them. You're not going to hole every putt coming home in a major and Augusta National is probably the hardest place in the world to putt from above the hole. Tiger's putt on 15 was only from a few feet more and he missed that. How is Phil's a choke and Tigers wasnt?!?!?!?!

 

[LeftyHoges]

Perhaps they were worried about Sergio sneaking up on them.:biglol:

And that is the best call I've heard in a long time. Nicely done TGFN!

 

[MCDavis]

Tiger didn't get the job done, but there's a big difference to how he played and a choke. He started 7 shots back and never really got into a position to choke. Those bogies were made on 17 and 18 because Tiger was way behind and needed to really press to make birdie. I'd bet if he could have swapped places with Perry he would have parred both holes for an easy win. Perry choked, Campbell choked and Phil choked. All those guys made huge mistakes from easy positions to throw it away. Tiger's misses on 17 and 18 were from errant tee shots, which anyone can do on tough driving holes like those two. Tiger also didn't putt well all week so missing the eagle on 15 wasn't out of character. Phil mised tiddlers on 15 and 17 that he would have expected to make. Campbell and Perry both missed greens from the middle of the fairway, and Perry hooked a 6 iron way left after hitting his irons solid all day. They are chokes.

I'd bet a full bag of custom built 24K gold Miuras that if ANY OTHER PLAYER in the world were ranked #1 and played like Tiger did you would say that player choked, figjam.

I swear I think your nose is so far up Tiger's butt that you know when he's going to fart before he does.

 

[figjam]

I'd bet a full bag of custom built 24K gold Miuras that if ANY OTHER PLAYER in the world were ranked #1 and played like Tiger did you would say that player choked, figjam.

I swear I think your nose is so far up Tiger's butt that you know when he's going to fart before he does.

My point was that Tiger didn't play any masive choke shots on Sunday, he was just a little off his game all day, but still shot a 68. Overall Phil beat him with a 67, but he would probably be the first to admit that Tiger probably got more out of his round than he did score wise. Phil played as good from tee to green as I've ever seen anyone play on Sunday at Augusta, but he choked at three critical moments that cost him 4 shots. The shot on 12 was the crucial choke as I think if he made par there he makes the two putts he issed and wins it. The shot on 12 was a mental error, he chose a risky shot instead of a safe option and paid the penalty for poor execution. Tigers two missed drives cost him probably only 2 shots as birdie was unlikely on the last two holes, which would have stil left him out of the playoff. Tiger himself said at the end of his round that he was aiming for 11 under but didn't make it, so I suppose by his own admission he didn't get the job done.

If you compare what he did in the Masters to what he usually does you may call it a choke form Tiger, but if it was a choke I think he it was more on the first two days than on Sunday. He really missed the boat on the greens on the first two days and should have shot 66 or better on Thursday. But not performing on a Thursday can't reeally be out down to a choke.

P.S. Even though Phil did choke, he was coming from way back like Tiger and had to press so it wasn't as bad a choke as his others over the years. I think Phil actually showed something we haven't seen before, and I think he is finally over Winged Foot. He looked like the pre Winged Foot Phil, and definitely outplayed Tiger, which doesn;t happen very often on Sunday in majors. I actually think Phil will take more positives out of the Masters from his overall play on Sunday and he will be a threat in the rest of this years majors.

 

[rolltherock]

CHOKE!!!!!!!

Come on Tiger lovers, defend him NOW...

You can make every argument under the sun about him being too far back at the start of the day, needing to chase birdies down the final two holes to post a score or anything else you can dream up.

Purely and simply put, Tiger was in contention on Sunday of a tournament (doesn't matter whether its the Masters or the John Deere open) and bogeyed the last two holes. One birdie in the last two holes would have been enough to put pressure on a less than stellar but still very reasonable leaderboard.

Now I have NOTHING against Tiger, and actually think he is the greatest golfer the world has ever seen but I don't love him and can be objectional about him.

You can't tell me that Cabrera, Perry and Campbell would see Tigers name at -10 on the leaderboard without their sphincter puckering up enough to cause quite a bit nerves for them.

IMHO Tiger overplayed the last two holes and CHOKED!!! (So did Phil).

That should cause a bit of discussion. Enjoy.

I love Tiger, but I gotta tell ya firing a 68 on Sunday at The Masters is going to be a tough sale as a choke to anyone who has played competitive golf. Yea, he screwed the pooch at the end, but a round is 18 holes. There is no question he let those shots get away, but to call a 68 a choke is well....hard for me to agree with.

Oh well, we are all entitled to our opinions. To come out and blow a 2 shot lead with 2 to go including a skulled chip on 17 and a chunked chip in sudden death.....now that is a choke in my book. Back in 2005 I had it to -5 though 13 on the Disney Osprey Ridge course and shot 73....now THAT is a gagalicious choke. Three OB tee shots and I drop 6 shots in 45 minutes....I still have slobber stains on the golf shirt I was wearing....oh yea I forgot I BURNED that shirt

 

[LeftyHoges]

I love Tiger, but I gotta tell ya firing a 68 on Sunday at The Masters is going to be a tough sale as a choke to anyone who has played competitive golf. Yea, he screwed the pooch at the end, but a round is 18 holes. There is no question he let those shots get away, but to call a 68 a choke is well....hard for me to agree with.

Oh well, we are all entitled to our opinions. To come out and blow a 2 shot lead with 2 to go including a skulled chip on 17 and a chunked chip in sudden death.....now that is a choke in my book. Back in 2005 I had it to -5 though 13 on the Disney Osprey Ridge course and shot 73....now THAT is a gagalicious choke. Three OB tee shots and I drop 6 shots in 45 minutes....I still have slobber stains on the golf shirt I was wearing....oh yea I forgot I BURNED that shirt

A choke is however many holes you make it... Jean Van De Velde at the British Open is a prime example of this. 3 up with 1 to play and takes 7? CHOKE! No other way around it. It doesn't matter if your 15 under or 15 over, if your 3 shots up with one to play and lose it, its a choke...
So you have Van De Velde's one hole choke, or you can have Norman's '96 Masters 18 hole choke. Same result. Loss...

 

[rolltherock]

A choke is however many holes you make it... Jean Van De Velde at the British Open is a prime example of this. 3 up with 1 to play and takes 7? CHOKE! No other way around it. It doesn't matter if your 15 under or 15 over, if your 3 shots up with one to play and lose it, its a choke...
So you have Van De Velde's one hole choke, or you can have Norman's '96 Masters 18 hole choke. Same result. Loss...

The only difference there, and it's a big one, is that both of those guys had huge leads that were choked away. Tiger was waaaaaaay back and was staring at a massive deficit. He made a good run, but he didn't blow a lead by any stretch. I certainly see how blowing a lead on 18 like Vandedweeb or Norman's all day collapse is a choke, but how do you call making a run from 7 back and coming up short....a choke?

Do you not see the glaring distinction? You are not making an apples to apples comparison. Had Tiger been tied for the lead or even worse leading....they yea I would call choke-itis on him instantly.

Like I said, we are all entitled to our own opinions and I respect your opinoin, but I think you are standing on an island calling not pulling off a massive comeback as a choke.

 

[LeftyHoges]

The only difference there, and it's a big one, is that both of those guys had huge leads that were choked away. Tiger was waaaaaaay back and was staring at a massive deficit. He made a good run, but he didn't blow a lead by any stretch. I certainly see how blowing a lead on 18 like Vandedweeb or Norman's all day collapse is a choke, but how do you call making a run from however far back Tiger was....6-7? and coming up short....a choke?

Do you not see the glaring distinction? You are not making an apples to apples comparison. Had Tiger been tied for the lead or even worse leading....they yea I would call choke-itis on him instantly.

Like I said, we are all entitled to our own opinions and I respect your opinoin, but I think you are standing on an island calling not pulling off a massive comeback as a choke.

To me, and this is my opinion, is that Tiger was standing on the 17th tee and was 1 shot from the leaders. Doesn't matter whats happened up to that point. He finished bogey, bogey and did not close out his round when he had a chance to win. Yes I'm aware that the leaders still had two par 5's to play but there's no denying that Tigers name up top of the leaderboard makes the other guys ass clench a hell of a lot tighter, and the pressure could very well have got to them. (More than it already did, if thats possible!!!)

But, like you said this is all opinion and I also respect yours. Cheers.

 

[figjam]

I respect both of the above opinions but I agree with the opinion that Tiger didn't choke. Even if you analyse his play on 17 and 18, he didn't hit it out of bounds or hook it off the planet. He went for risky drives needing birdies, and didn't quite pull it off. A choke for me cmes in two forms, physical and mental. A physical choke is just flat out duffing a shot or jabbing a gimme that you would normally make with your eyes closed, like Hoch in the Masters that time missing form two feet. Or Norman leaving a ball in the bunker in the last round of the PGA the time Zinger ran him down. A mental choke is when you make a very poor decision before you step up to hit. Phil's decision to go with 9 iron on 12 (in spite of the advice of his caddy to go with 8) is a good example. He made a choice that put pressure on him to hit a solid shot to avoid the water and reach the green, bringing the worst trouble into play. His execution was not good but the real choke was the decision to go fro that shot in the first place.

Tiger was not guilty of either of those things at the Masters. He didn't get the job done but he certainly didn't take the gas either.