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TV Jury for Golf?

BigJim13

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Aug 13, 2006
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No other sport has this situation where if a rules infraction is found after the fact (except for a failed drug test) the player/team is punished. I think the decision should stand. If the media notice an infraction has occurred, the subsequent negative exposure would be punishment enough for a player not to do it again. IMO.

Our college football system can go back as far as what? 6 yrs in Reggie Bush's case and take away the Heisman so golf is not alone in penalizing after the fact. Can't recall at the moment though if USC had to give up their championship. Oh, and college basketball here in the states, not long ago, if my recall is good, the team from Univ. of Memphis had a whole season vacated because of rules violations by one of their players. Their season was vacated or forefeited after it was over.

Back to the issue at hand though. While I don't like the fact that a person can call in from home and ultimately get a person DQ'd, it's not really that different than a spectator calling the penalty while in the crowd. Now if they made a rule that stated only players and tournament officials can call penalties during the playing of a tournament, then I could see that getting somewhere.

I have seen the video and if I wasn't watching for a ball move I doubt I would have seen it. Hell, I hardly am sure that I DID see that ball move and I WAS watching for it.
 

Augster

Rules Nerd
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Mar 9, 2005
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a DQ that basically labels you as a cheat that is BS.

I don't think anyone is going to label Padraig a cheat for this. He made a mistake, didn't notice it, and signed an incorrect card. Just like Villegas. Neither were doing anything intentional, but ignorance of the Rules does not allow you to break the Rules.

None of this is like what Saltman was doing where the two guys in his group refused to sign his card.

Mistakes like Padraig made happen. Why compound the mistake by allowing him to continue in the tourney? Someone needs to protect the field and if the player isn't going to do it, or the marker, or the Rules officials, that responsibility falls on the millions of spectators watching at home.

DQ for an incorrect card on innocent mistakes are rediculous, but once you start getting into guessing "intent" it is a slippery slope. Who makes the final decision on his intentions? When Villegas moved that clod of earth, was he moving it in case his ball ended up there, or because he just felt like tidying up the place? In the first case he's a scumball cheat, in the latter, it's an innocent mistake where one could be ignorant of the rules. Which is it? Who knows for sure besides the player?

This is why the Rules are written as they are. The rules are based on integrity. But what if you don't have any? Without judging intent, what Saltman did is very similiar to what Harrington did. He just "accidentally" moved his ball 5 times in a round instead of 1.

The Rules try to remove intent from the equation. Did Padraig move his ball? Yes. Did he play from wrong place? Yes. Did he not correct his error and sign for an incorrect score? Yes again. No asking about intent. Just easy yes and no answers.
 

TheTrueReview

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Also, BTW, that linked Youtube video sucks. You can't see anything.

Look at this video which was the HD feed. Quite obvious.

Padraig Harrington disqualified at 2011 Abu Dhabi Golf Championship for rules vioaltion - Tours & News - Golf.com

I can't believe that Harrington didn't receive the benefit of any doubt. The ball may have 'oscillated' but it didn't move.

"A ball has "moved" only if it leaves its original position in the least degree, and stop in another ; but if it merely oscillates, without finally leaving its original position, it has not "moved.""
 

thekid65

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Jan 2, 2009
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I can't believe that Harrington didn't receive the benefit of any doubt. The ball may have 'oscillated' but it didn't move.

"A ball has "moved" only if it leaves its original position in the least degree, and stop in another ; but if it merely oscillates, without finally leaving its original position, it has not "moved.""

Dude, it definitely moved forward....., if I were to hazard a guess, I'd say no more than 1/4", or no more than 1/4 rotation. Was it intentional? Obviously not. Was an advantage gained? Obviously not. This is where I have a problem with a lot of the rules of golf. However, it is what it is..and the rule was clearly broken. And honestly, shouldnt Paddy have felt the ball touch his hand? As was mentioned previously, he could have replaced the ball to it's original position w/o penalty.

As to the topic at hand, I do not believe that TV viewers should have any impact on the game at all. There should be a rules official assigned to every group in a tournament, all 4 rounds... and his/her ruling (or lack thereof) is final. If he/she misses a call, so be it...it happens all the time in every other professional sporting event (as a die-hard Cardinals fan, I still remember the missed call by Denkinger in the 85 WS), and missed calls have had a profound impact on end results....we, the sports fans, have come to accept this fact. So why shouldnt it be the same in professional golf?
 

BigJim13

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Aug 13, 2006
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.

As to the topic at hand, I do not believe that TV viewers should have any impact on the game at all. There should be a rules official assigned to every group in a tournament, all 4 rounds... and his/her ruling (or lack thereof) is final. If he/she misses a call, so be it...it happens all the time in every other professional sporting event (as a die-hard Cardinals fan, I still remember the missed call by Denkinger in the 85 WS), and missed calls have had a profound impact on end results....we, the sports fans, have come to accept this fact. So why shouldnt it be the same in professional golf?

The problem with this thinking is that golfers routinely speak about holding themselves accountable and playing to a higher standard. How many times have you heard that you don't need to call a penalty on a golfer (pro anyway) because they will call it on themself. In the last year, how many pros have called the penalty on themself I might add. From Dustin Johnson to Julie Inkster, the only one I clearly remember is the guy at Harbor Town in the playoff against Furyk (I think it was Furyk anyway).

FWIW I agree with you that viewers shouldn't be able to call in or email in to say a rule has been broken and I think that needs to change. But...I guess until the R&A and USGA wake up to the world we live in and understand that people at home will and often do call in and email in, this is what we are stuck with.
 

Esox

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Aug 6, 2008
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You folks are nuts. Play the game by the rules. If you break a rule, even as inadvertantly as Podge's situation, live with the consequences.

How is it rediculous? How is it unfair? He moved his ball, then played from wrong place. He didn't realize he moved his ball. If he had realized it, he could have moved it back without penalty. But he didn't. As played, he played from a wrong place.

Do I think it is unfair that only the best players get this kind of scrutiny because they are on TV most often? Of course. There is a way to not be on TV so much you know. Play worse.

If you are good enough to cash the checks that come with being on TV, you have to accept your play is going to be more scrutinized while you are out there. It comes with the territory of cashing huge checks.

How can anyone compare golf officiating to any other sport? In every officiated sport players try to get away with the maximum they can without getting caught. Constantly breaking rules until an official cites them for it. There is no honor in those games. No reliance on self.

In golf, you are responsible for calling your own infractions. And are expected to. When you don't call your own infractions, and get caught not doing so by others, there are consequences. Does it matter if it is a playing opponent, a Rules official walking with them, someone outside the ropes, a caddie, or someone from home? NONE of those folks broke the rules. ALL are required to point an infraction out in order to protect the field. Either a player broke a rule or he didn't. Getting the ruling right is the most important thing.

In the end the responsibility of fair play falls on the player. Just play by the Rules and you have nothing to worry about.

Just FYI...
It is very obvious the ball is moved in the video. The first time I saw it I couldn't believe he wasn't moving it back and playing from wrong place. Nothing intentional I am sure, and Padraig handled it wonderfully.

What these players need to do is to remember to F-up in the FINAL round. That way when it is caught the next day, there are no ramifications. Because when the competition is closed, and the checks are awarded, that's it. All results are final. :)

I don't think anyone is going to label Padraig a cheat for this. He made a mistake, didn't notice it, and signed an incorrect card. Just like Villegas. Neither were doing anything intentional, but ignorance of the Rules does not allow you to break the Rules.

None of this is like what Saltman was doing where the two guys in his group refused to sign his card.

Mistakes like Padraig made happen. Why compound the mistake by allowing him to continue in the tourney? Someone needs to protect the field and if the player isn't going to do it, or the marker, or the Rules officials, that responsibility falls on the millions of spectators watching at home.

DQ for an incorrect card on innocent mistakes are rediculous, but once you start getting into guessing "intent" it is a slippery slope. Who makes the final decision on his intentions? When Villegas moved that clod of earth, was he moving it in case his ball ended up there, or because he just felt like tidying up the place? In the first case he's a scumball cheat, in the latter, it's an innocent mistake where one could be ignorant of the rules. Which is it? Who knows for sure besides the player?

This is why the Rules are written as they are. The rules are based on integrity. But what if you don't have any? Without judging intent, what Saltman did is very similiar to what Harrington did. He just "accidentally" moved his ball 5 times in a round instead of 1.

The Rules try to remove intent from the equation. Did Padraig move his ball? Yes. Did he play from wrong place? Yes. Did he not correct his error and sign for an incorrect score? Yes again. No asking about intent. Just easy yes and no answers.


These are the two best posts I've seen on these situations, and I think I've written a few good ones in other places myself. As has Fourputt. The part in bold pretty much puts to rest the "but in other sports" whining. Well done, Augster.

Kevin
 

TheTrueReview

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....I do not believe that TV viewers should have any impact on the game at all. There should be a rules official assigned to every group in a tournament, all 4 rounds... and his/her ruling (or lack thereof) is final. If he/she misses a call, so be it...it happens all the time in every other professional sporting event (as a die-hard Cardinals fan, I still remember the missed call by Denkinger in the 85 WS), and missed calls have had a profound impact on end results....we, the sports fans, have come to accept this fact. So why shouldnt it be the same in professional golf?

... I agree with you that viewers shouldn't be able to call in or email in to say a rule has been broken and I think that needs to change. ...

I agree guys.

FWIW, golf isn't a self regulated game. It's a partly self regulated game. On course rules officials regulate also. It's just that there's not that many of them.

Golf isn't the only game where players can call a penalty/stroke/point on themselves. I've seen tennis players at times agree amongst themselves that a rules official got it wrong and (by agreement) replay a serve or (the player receiving a serve) concede the point.
 

thekid65

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Jan 2, 2009
406
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The problem with this thinking is that golfers routinely speak about holding themselves accountable and playing to a higher standard. How many times have you heard that you don't need to call a penalty on a golfer (pro anyway) because they will call it on themself. In the last year, how many pros have called the penalty on themself I might add. From Dustin Johnson to Julie Inkster, the only one I clearly remember is the guy at Harbor Town in the playoff against Furyk (I think it was Furyk anyway).

If I recall, Inkster didnt call that penalty on herself, I believe a viewer called that one in (if you're referring to the weight on the club incident). I know that golfers call penalties on themselves all the time, but even these guys that do it for a living don't understand, or even know all the rules. Having an official with every group would also help pace of play a bit, no more waiting for one to show up if a player has a question. However, I'm not so sure that even having an official with the Paddy group would have helped what happened...he pretty much would have had to be standing a couple feet away to see the miniscule amount of distance that ball moved. But in the case of Villegas a couple of weeks ago, a nearby official clearly would have seen that violation.

Edit: What irritates me most about these viewer call-ins, is that I can't recall one incident where the violation that was seen/caught by a viewer really had any impact on the golfers next shot, or would have made a difference in the outcome of the round.....can you?
 

Augster

Rules Nerd
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Mar 9, 2005
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Esox, thanks very much. I try my best. :)

The worst argument, to me at least, against calling in infractions is that it penalizes only the best players, or the leaders of tournaments.

In the past, what, 15 years, how many HUNDREDS of hours has Tiger and Phil been playing on TV? How many infractions have been called in and thereby DQ'd these guys? How about NONE.

Nobody has hit more broadcasted shots in the history of television than Tiger Woods. And there are PLENTY of haters out there. Just make a pro-Tiger post on this forum. Yet, nobody has called anything in on him after a round. Say what you want about his club throwing, his cursing, his carousing, but the man flat-out plays by the Rules of Golf.

Know the rules, play by the rules, and you have nothing to worry about. Pay attention to what you are doing on the course, use yourself and your judgement to protect the field and this entire argument is a non-issue.

BTW, if anyone read PGA Tour Confidential this week (I read it every Monday because it's awesome) those writers were split on this issue which surprised me. Though the writers that I actively follow were in line with my thinking on the subject. And you KNOW Bamberger has to think it's okay because he is the one that got Wie DQ'd a few years back. The fink.
 

Augster

Rules Nerd
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Mar 9, 2005
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Edit: What irritates me most about these viewer call-ins, is that I can't recall one incident where the violation that was seen/caught by a viewer really had any impact on the golfers next shot, or would have made a difference in the outcome of the round.....can you?

Kenny Perry improving his lie in a playoff. I think it was two years ago up against the Super Bowl so nobody saw it. He did it at the right time though, during a playoff in the final round. By the time the PGA was alerted to the possible infraction, it was Monday and the checks had already gone out. Unless they could prove that he "CHEATED" knowingly, there isn't anything that can be done about it. And to prove someone "knowingly cheated" to get an advantage, it'd have to be caught on video and almost be as egregious as Judge Smails booting his ball around in the rough. "Winter Rules."
 

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