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Where is the industry going?

ClairefromClare

Like my balls?
Jul 23, 2008
2,056
4
Paying anything but retail is rarely an option for me--options just don't exist. :unhappy:

Seriously, though, golf's heyday was about ten-fifteen years ago, when Tiger hit the scene. Sort of like tennis's was in the 1970s. Every year, as many golfers leave the sport as come to it. Many private clubs have waiting lists to get out. This latest worst-economic-downturn-of-all-time is just ramping up the velocity a bit.

Face it--we're special. Or warped. Or both. :faintthud
 

Augster

Rules Nerd
Supporting Member
Mar 9, 2005
1,473
23
One can blame the economy, and that is certainly a truism. One can also say that the market is too flooded with drivers that were $400 six months ago and now their technology is dated???

The REAL fact is that in club design, there is NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN!

For drivers, if you have the correct launch angle and spin for your swingspeed, meaning that you have the correct shaft/head/ball combo, you are set. You really can't do much more.

Yes, you can get a "higher MOI" driver to further reduce how far offline your mishits are. But really, there isn't much difference in ball flight on off center hits between a 5000 MOI and the USGA limit of 5900. You won't even notice it.

If you are already playing a high MOI driver, and have been fitted for the launch angle and spin for your swing speed, you don't need to buy anything else.

The USGA has maximized the "box" a clubhead can be at 5"x5". It has maxed the MOI. It has maxed the COR. All clubheads are built to the highest tolerable COR.

So if you've been fitted correctly, there really isn't any more performance to gain. It's always nice to have shiny new stuff, but it certainly isn't necessary. And you WON'T gain anything yardage-wise if you are already maxed.

And that is in drivers.

In irons NOTHING has changed. Perimeter weighting has been around for a LONG time.

The only folks that "NEED" to buy new stuff are folks that have NEVER been fitted and folks that are REALLY changing their swings. For instance, you finally figure out how to hold your angle and add 10MPH to your driver swing. Now your stuff that was fitted to you at your old swingspeed won't be optimized to your new swingspeed.

There just aren't that many folks that are actually "changing their swing".

What was the most recent "new developments"? Movable weighting and I-Mix shafts.

Movable weights PHYSICALLY make no difference and are a gimmick. Mentally, you may think you can all of a sudden hit a draw, and you do, because you are trying to.

The I-Mix shafts make no sense to me whatsoever. If you have optimum launch conditions with a certain shaft and clubhead, why would you all of a sudden be inclined to change the shaft???

"Oh, yeah, I hit my optimum launch conditions with that other shaft, but I figured I'd throw this one in this round just to mix it up, play poorly, and give you guys some money. I just hit the ball too good with that other shaft." Stupid.

The gains in driving length are done. The PGA Tour shows this. They gained massive yardage once launch monitors and Pro V1's became the norm. Since they have all gotten fitted, the average driving distance is only going up around 1 yard per year now. Before the USGA stepped in, the average was jumping every year. Every year the OEM's would bring out something that WAS new and different.

Bigger heads meant more off-center forgiveness. More trampoline effect with thinner and thinner faces. Lighter heads for more swing speed.

When the USGA capped everything, it put an end to gaining yardage just by buying the newest equipment. Now you won't gain yardage, but you might gain a little forgiveness. Even that is capped at WELL BELOW an "untwistable" clubhead.

So really, for the average player, there IS NO REASON to buy ANYTHING new unless you are a ho and "just gotta have it". But most ho's I know don't like to have their item depreciated significantly as soon as they walk out the door. Even more depreciation in 6 months when the new line comes out. So they buy used, online, and save a bundle.
 

xamilo

Right Curving Driver....
Supporting Member
Dec 22, 2007
2,924
301
I agree its a matter of season as well. New stuff is just hitting the shelves at top prices. Some people aren't buying this new stuff before they hear enough about them or enough reviews are written down. Some would not be willing to pay $500 for a Driver they aren't able to try and demo before hand, which would take a while to happen. Some others (I'm an example) are waiting for the last years products to drop to the floor due o the new ones before spending in them. It happens in golf, it happens with new 09 car release an the few 08' models which need great promotions to leave the stores.

Just wait for Xmass and you'll see hehehehe
 

mddubya

Hybrid convert
Nov 6, 2007
6,029
2
One can blame the economy, and that is certainly a truism. One can also say that the market is too flooded with drivers that were $400 six months ago and now their technology is dated???

The REAL fact is that in club design, there is NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN!

For drivers, if you have the correct launch angle and spin for your swingspeed, meaning that you have the correct shaft/head/ball combo, you are set. You really can't do much more.

Yes, you can get a "higher MOI" driver to further reduce how far offline your mishits are. But really, there isn't much difference in ball flight on off center hits between a 5000 MOI and the USGA limit of 5900. You won't even notice it.

If you are already playing a high MOI driver, and have been fitted for the launch angle and spin for your swing speed, you don't need to buy anything else.

The USGA has maximized the "box" a clubhead can be at 5"x5". It has maxed the MOI. It has maxed the COR. All clubheads are built to the highest tolerable COR.

So if you've been fitted correctly, there really isn't any more performance to gain. It's always nice to have shiny new stuff, but it certainly isn't necessary. And you WON'T gain anything yardage-wise if you are already maxed.

And that is in drivers.

In irons NOTHING has changed. Perimeter weighting has been around for a LONG time.

The only folks that "NEED" to buy new stuff are folks that have NEVER been fitted and folks that are REALLY changing their swings. For instance, you finally figure out how to hold your angle and add 10MPH to your driver swing. Now your stuff that was fitted to you at your old swingspeed won't be optimized to your new swingspeed.

There just aren't that many folks that are actually "changing their swing".

What was the most recent "new developments"? Movable weighting and I-Mix shafts.

Movable weights PHYSICALLY make no difference and are a gimmick. Mentally, you may think you can all of a sudden hit a draw, and you do, because you are trying to.

The I-Mix shafts make no sense to me whatsoever. If you have optimum launch conditions with a certain shaft and clubhead, why would you all of a sudden be inclined to change the shaft???

"Oh, yeah, I hit my optimum launch conditions with that other shaft, but I figured I'd throw this one in this round just to mix it up, play poorly, and give you guys some money. I just hit the ball too good with that other shaft." Stupid.

The gains in driving length are done. The PGA Tour shows this. They gained massive yardage once launch monitors and Pro V1's became the norm. Since they have all gotten fitted, the average driving distance is only going up around 1 yard per year now. Before the USGA stepped in, the average was jumping every year. Every year the OEM's would bring out something that WAS new and different.

Bigger heads meant more off-center forgiveness. More trampoline effect with thinner and thinner faces. Lighter heads for more swing speed.

When the USGA capped everything, it put an end to gaining yardage just by buying the newest equipment. Now you won't gain yardage, but you might gain a little forgiveness. Even that is capped at WELL BELOW an "untwistable" clubhead.

So really, for the average player, there IS NO REASON to buy ANYTHING new unless you are a ho and "just gotta have it". But most ho's I know don't like to have their item depreciated significantly as soon as they walk out the door. Even more depreciation in 6 months when the new line comes out. So they buy used, online, and save a bundle.


+1 on what Augster said. I was about to type basically the same thing, saved me a lot of work, :emot-ange

With every thing capped by the USGA, it just doesn't make sense to buy the latest and greatest when its the same as what you already have, just repackaged.
 
OP
limpalong

limpalong

Mental Ward Escapee
Supporting Member
Oct 18, 2006
13,821
13,653
I forgot!
Country
United States United States
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread starter
  • #20
Auguster... you echo exactly what I've said for some time. The industry is "stagnant". With the USGA limits on drivers... what can the industry do to "excite" the masses?

In the Karsten years, the irons out there were all forged blades... Wilson, MacGregor, Haig, Hogan, Spaulding, Armour... not a lot of difference between brands. Karsten brought out a cast head with significant perimeter weighting... and a slightly different groove design. It was different. People of all levels of ability could hit it straighter than the traditional blade designs. The impact the iron had on the industry was evidenced by the PGA/Karsten litigation... driven, in the background, by Nicklaus who was a major stockholder of MacGregor.

Look at my bag!! I'm sorry, but a person playing most any iron on the market today has no more advanced technology than does my set of Eye 2+'s. Today, in irons, you have few choices. Cast or forged... Blade or perimeter weighted.

Likewise, Ely was a similar genius. Gary Adams was having limited success with his Taylor Made metal woods. Players could choose between some great persimmon or laminated wood heads or some, relatively small, steel heads. Then Ely went to a completely different metal and "huge" (250-275cc) club heads like the Great Big Bertha. "No one would be caught dead with a huge clubhead like that in their bag!" Yet, they flew off the shelves because it was something entirely different and something that allowed we weekend hackers to have an easier time playing this game. The industry, then, went bonkers over larger clubhead designs and brought us to where we are today.

Honestly, this industry needs another Karsten or Ely. Both were thought renegades. Both had made their careers in unrelated industries. Neither was dependent on the golf industry to kiss their behinds. Each did their own thing... could afford to do their own thing... and "got lucky".

Today, the industry designers are sitting at computers. We are using the most advanced software technology to manipulate the parameters programmed into that software. Those manipulations of set parameters give us another rendition of yesterday's model rolled out as today's "God's gift to the industry"!

Until we have someone that can dream a completely different dream... finance that dream... and, then, challenge the subjective clauses of the USGA equipment gestapo... I don't see much changing.
 

joshtpa

Well-Known Member
Jul 7, 2008
19
0
5 years ago we had no square headed clubs. Now we have quite a few. I think the problem is that so many companies are making products now that you expect so many so fast.

20 years ago nothing changed except about every few years. Now people want a change immediately. Give it time, things will change.
 

RCI

Well-Known Member
Jul 26, 2008
159
0
The economy is a puzzling challenge ahead for everyone. There is one fairly sure thing: when so much money is loaned out to so many people with no tangible collateral, economics breaks down. Most financially astute people knew this was going to happen, but you cannot stop mandated programs until they fail. It was said a long time ago -- there is no such thing as a free lunch.

No one can predict with certainity when volitility is high. We do know with certainity that we are going to have to pay for the housing and subprime mess and the "we" is going to be all of us, including golfers. The full impact of that has not hit us yet. So, sure... golf courses, club makers, balls, every aspect of what is golf is under attack and it will get worse before it gets better. If you have a good situation with your golf course, good clubs, and can play often, hang on to what you have got -- you have a good deal going.
 

ClairefromClare

Like my balls?
Jul 23, 2008
2,056
4
Geez--times must really be tough. In yesterday's office mail, I got an offer to join Fiddler's Elbow Country Club. Not this week. This place doesn't even allow individual memberships. Only corporate. I've played the Forest Course, and it's gorgeous.
 

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