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Why do I play golf? -- Split

Mister Bater

Well-Known Member
Jan 13, 2005
117
0
Loop said:
Good points IG. The one I may find an exception is this:
Honesty and integrity are tenets of this game I strongly adhere to. Play by the rules only, no exceptions.
If the ball is resting above a tree root, I'll move the ball (asking others before though) without penalty, since I don't want to ruin my beautiful blades :)

You are a cheat.

"When the Great Scorer comes to write, He will not write whether you won or lost, but how you played the game "
 
OP
Mister Bater

Mister Bater

Well-Known Member
Jan 13, 2005
117
0
  • Thread Starter
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  • #2
Bravo said:
Loop:

I love your post...this characterizes the groups I play with...we Always Bet (something)...It really Does add to it!

So you walk away from the table a bit lighter (or a bit to the good). I really like this and virtually never play without a wager.

And we Do follow the rules, except those situations like you described with the treeroot.

I have played in many tourneys that followed the ROG without exception and I respect the ROG as issued by the R&A/USGA...but for a "friendly round" relaxing some of them makes it better for everyone. What we do not relax is things like lost balls...if it you hit one OB - you must retee and we do. I did this last weekend and it cost me a DB which really hurt.

On the other hand, I had a ball which was literally touching the trunk of a large tree, resting between two roots. There is no way I could have made a blow on the ball without smashing the club into both the trunk as well as the root. So my playing companion (on the other team) said, "Move it away two inches". This at least allowed me to get club on the ball...(I still had to hit out into the fairway sideways)...

So you pick and choose the rules you wish to adhere to?

Cheating by any other name is still cheating. I had you down as one of the posters to be more admired on this forum.

Alas, I am disappointed.

Why do it? Why cheat? Why not just declare the ball unplayable and take a penalty drop?

If it is only a friendly game, it shouldn't matter to you what your score is, so do it properly and play by the rules.

Discipline, integrity, honesty. Part time traits? They shouldn't be.

The thin edge of the cheating wedge is in you, and I fear for where it may end.
 

Bravo

Well-Known Member
Aug 27, 2004
5,822
15
I do not cheat...I play with a group of players who play by the same rules. And when everyone is playing by the same rules - no player gains an advantage - which is the essence of cheating.

If you and I ever play together and you want to play by the ROG - it will be fine with me as I have played in tourneys on many occasions that follow this.

But we would have agreed in advance - what we were playing by - and nobody would be getting an advantage.
 

caddyshackgolf

Be The Ball
Feb 22, 2005
272
0
This is a great post. Cause you explain exactly how I feel about the game I love to play and hopefully I will still be playing when im 89 years old.

I love the challenge of trying to fix a slice or playing different shots and making goals for myself and getting to them. It doesnt really matter if I beat one of my friends as long as I go out there and try hard and have a great time.
 
OP
Mister Bater

Mister Bater

Well-Known Member
Jan 13, 2005
117
0
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  • #5
Bravo said:
I do not cheat...I play with a group of players who play by the same rules. And when everyone is playing by the same rules - no player gains an advantage - which is the essence of cheating.

If you and I ever play together and you want to play by the ROG - it will be fine with me as I have played in tourneys on many occasions that follow this.

But we would have agreed in advance - what we were playing by - and nobody would be getting an advantage.


The rules of golf are not determined by you or your friends.

You did not answer the question - why not play by the rules and add a penalty stroke? The only response can be to keep your scores artificially low. Bragging rights in the clubhouse or on a messageboard..."oh, I shot 84". Neglecting to mention the several mulligans/free drops/whatever other rule infrigements you and your friends decide upon in your happy-go-lucky group.

Imagine a dogleg with trees. Sensible player plays down the fairway. Partner decided to go for it, knowing he can play preferred lies if he lands in the trees. The rules are there for a reason.

Dress it up how you will - it's cheating.

I am sorely disappointed.
 

Augster

Rules Nerd
Supporting Member
Mar 9, 2005
1,473
23
Rule 1-3. Agreement to Waive Rules

Players must not agree to exclude the operation of any Rule or to waive any penalty incurred.
Penalty for Breach of Rule 1-3:
Match play — Disqualification of both sides;
Stroke play — Disqualification of competitors concerned.
(Agreeing to play out of turn in stroke play — see Rule 10-2c.)
 
OP
Mister Bater

Mister Bater

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Jan 13, 2005
117
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Augster said:
Rule 1-3. Agreement to Waive Rules

Players must not agree to exclude the operation of any Rule or to waive any penalty incurred.
Penalty for Breach of Rule 1-3:
Match play — Disqualification of both sides;
Stroke play — Disqualification of competitors concerned.
(Agreeing to play out of turn in stroke play — see Rule 10-2c.)

So, basically, agreeing to ignore a rule is a breach of the rules in itself?

I still dont see - why do it? why not just play to the rule and accept the penalty unless it's to cheat on your score.
 

Bravo

Well-Known Member
Aug 27, 2004
5,822
15
Mister Bater said:
The rules of golf are not determined by you or your friends.

You did not answer the question - why not play by the rules and add a penalty stroke? The only response can be to keep your scores artificially low. Bragging rights in the clubhouse or on a messageboard..."oh, I shot 84". Neglecting to mention the several mulligans/free drops/whatever other rule infrigements you and your friends decide upon in your happy-go-lucky group.

Imagine a dogleg with trees. Sensible player plays down the fairway. Partner decided to go for it, knowing he can play preferred lies if he lands in the trees. The rules are there for a reason.

Dress it up how you will - it's cheating.

I am sorely disappointed.

We have no mulligans and as I explained in my previous post - we have no free drops. When I jacked one OB on 12, I promptly reteed - took my Stroke and Distance and played on. I took four strokes from there and carded a 6...all strictly by the rules.

On hole five that same round, once again I was obstructed by a tree...but I could swing my club without smashing it into a root. What did I do? Without hesitation, I chipped out into the fairway (at a 90 degree angle) and played on. In this case, I hit a really good approach and made par.

So your assertion that these very unusual situations where we allow a player to move a ball very slightly to prevent club (or human) damage are artificially lower our scores are untrue.

I know and understand the ROG. Our group plays by a very slightly modified set.
 

longiron

Well-Known Member
May 2, 2005
332
1
I think if it is a freindly game you dont have to go by the book or be damned. I dont think that everyone of us plays by the rules everytime out.
 

wirehair

Life's too short to drink cheap wine.
Apr 29, 2005
2,489
3
Scores only count if you care what you shoot. If you're playing for fun, enjoy the round.

I don't think any of us would really enjoy breakin a shaft on a tree root. Then again...that could be satisfying in a twisted sorta way.
 

Killsocket

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2005
12
0
If every Tom, Dick, and Harry played by the rules to a tee, we would have 9 hour rounds on some of these courses.
I say, as long as you don't overtly cheat on the simple stuff is all that really matters for casual golfing. :D

But I think you should follow as many rules as you can without hindering groups in front or behind you.
 

Bravo

Well-Known Member
Aug 27, 2004
5,822
15
Killsocket said:
If every Tom, Dick, and Harry played by the rules to a tee, we would have 9 hour rounds on some of these courses.
I say, as long as you don't overtly cheat on the simple stuff is all that really matters for casual golfing. :D

But I think you should follow as many rules as you can without hindering groups in front or behind you.

A very meaningful point...our course is usually pretty loaded with players and you have to have some sense of pace...this is why we are very mindful of hitting provisionals when we believe we have jacked one OB...

Our goal is the four hour round and people start getting angry when play slows down...
 

Loop

Well-Known Member
Aug 27, 2004
1,418
3
Mister Bater said:
So you pick and choose the rules you wish to adhere to?

Cheating by any other name is still cheating. I had you down as one of the posters to be more admired on this forum.

Alas, I am disappointed.

Why do it? Why cheat? Why not just declare the ball unplayable and take a penalty drop?

If it is only a friendly game, it shouldn't matter to you what your score is, so do it properly and play by the rules.

Discipline, integrity, honesty. Part time traits? They shouldn't be.

The thin edge of the cheating wedge is in you, and I fear for where it may end.

Mr. Bater, I completely understand, and agree to your point of view.

But you need to keep in mind that in our group, we don`t play EXACTLY by the book. By that, I mean there are certain situations that needs for a ruling that should be fair and falls into common sense.

The situation I was talking about earlier was when the ball is lying just above a tree root, or even a rock. It is completely playable, but if you make good contact, the ball will fly true, but you`ll literally ding and scratch your iron. In those situations, we ask for the ruling in our group, and generally, you can move the ball an inch or two so your club won`t get scratched, without any penalty. We do it without penalty, because it isn`t an unplayable lie, but we don`t want also the club to get scratched. Of course, if I had a set of iron I wouldn`t care about being destroyed, I`d go all out and kill my equipment.

I gave that ruling to my opponent just last weekend, even when I was losing.

Also, if you`d play with me and you`d give me a penalty for that, I`d say "ok, no prob". And if you were in that similar situation, I wouldn`t give a penalty to you, because I sincerely think the game should be enjoyable, and it is a fair call, even if by the book, it`d be called cheating.

:)

 

CybrSlicr

Well-Known Member
Aug 30, 2004
106
7
I can understand both sides of the argument on this one.

Golf is a unique game, in that the only person you truly compete with is yourself and your opponent is the golf course. If you cheat, you only cheat yourself.

Let's look at the situation in question a couple of ways:

Scenario 1: You land the ball in the fairway but you land it on a rock or root. You decide to move the ball 3 inches to the left or right so as not to damage your club. You have not improved your lie and you have not moved the ball closer to the hole.

Scenario 2: You land the ball in the first cut of rough just behind a bush and you land it on a rock or root. You decide to move the ball 3 inches to the left or right so as not to damage your club. By moving it, the bush is no longer an obstacle for your shot.

If either situation occurred with someone I was playing against on the course during a recreational round (no money, tournament, etc), I wouldn't care one way or the other. If they wish to do that, it is their round of golf.

If either situation occurred with someone I was playing against on the course during match play, tournament play, skins, etc, I wouldn't care about situation 1. I would object to situation 2.

IMHO, to be considered cheating, the act needs to gain you an advantage you did not have before the act. In situation 1, that is not the case. In situation 2, on the other hand, it is the case. Also, if your opponents are willing to allow the act, then again, I would not consider it cheating.

((Of course, in non-competitive play, the only person you are cheating is yourself))

To the other point, if it does not matter and you don't want to damage your clubs, Mr. Bater's point is a good one - is the club worth the stroke? If you truly don't care about the score, then an 88 or 89 should be no different.

In the end, if everyone in your group agree to the rules, then it's not cheating. Our regular league is a group of hackers. On the league website the rules clearly state that "On a ball OB, you may drop anywhere in the flight path, taking the stroke for the drop. Don't penalize yourself twice for the ball OB." While not part of the ROG, they are the rules our league plays by. When I play in the league on Thursdays, those are the rules I use. When I play anywhere else, I call the provisional and hit again from the same spot. The "Rules" are subjective to what the collective group of opponents you compete against wish to make them. As long as everyone is playing by the same set of agreed upon rules, I would not consider it cheating.

A very interesting argument.
 
OP
Mister Bater

Mister Bater

Well-Known Member
Jan 13, 2005
117
0
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  • #15
Bravo said:
We have no mulligans and as I explained in my previous post - we have no free drops. When I jacked one OB on 12, I promptly reteed - took my Stroke and Distance and played on. I took four strokes from there and carded a 6...all strictly by the rules.

On hole five that same round, once again I was obstructed by a tree...but I could swing my club without smashing it into a root. What did I do? Without hesitation, I chipped out into the fairway (at a 90 degree angle) and played on. In this case, I hit a really good approach and made par.

So your assertion that these very unusual situations where we allow a player to move a ball very slightly to prevent club (or human) damage are artificially lower our scores are untrue.

I know and understand the ROG. Our group plays by a very slightly modified set.


You know, understand and subsequently ignore the Rules of Golf.

You have yet to state why you don't call 'unplayable' and take a penalty shot.

It seems you do all except take the penalty. why? I can only think to give yourself an artificially low score. Which you then relay to friends, family and messageboards.

I'd expect this behavior from others on these boards. And possibly even excuse it in "hackers". But from a single-digit index? And from you especially? OK, end of conversation unless you have more to add. I'm sorely disappointed.
 

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