"Connected" swings

[Manavs]

So Manavs, you're advocating starting the downswing with your hands? You were referencing a pitcher earlier- do you think pitchers also start to unwind with their hand first?

SilverUberXeno - In my experience i like to see the hands leverage against the shaft in order to move the hips. and as far as pitchers go, yes the intention of moving the ball, will move the hand which will move the hips. that to me is the cascading effect created.

Hands don't cause the hips to move. You can move your hands and arms freely without your hips moving at all. That doesn't make physiological sense to me. Turning your hips moves your whole upper body by virtue of structural design, but the hands and arms, and even shoulders, can move quite a lot without moving the hips.

i see what your saying but lets look at it from both sides here.

if you move your hips - that does not guarantee the proper hand action.
but if you move your hands correctly, your body will respond (provided you arent preventing it to move).

for example -(and i know how you all love my examples =) ) if you stand nice and tall with your arms out elevated by your sides and attempt to make your right hand occupy the space your left hand is in, your hips will move not because they just decided hey lets turn, rather because they are accommodating your hands' request.

Is it possible your body is so tuned to the golf swing that you don't realize your hips KNOW to fire?

my hips fire and fire hard only because my hand action is forcing them to.

Pulling down with your hands would not make your hips turn. You can sit in a chair and pull down with your hands. If you're in a swivel chair, your hips actually turn AWAY from the ball when you do that.

you just made the argument why one should never pull on the downswing with your hands, yes, because your hips turn the opposite way tearing apart your back because of the lack of hip turn.

i never advocated pulling with your hands. in my book i talk about creating enough momentum in the backswing that to change the shaft's course extend aginst or leveraging against this moving shaft in the direction of the ball with your hands. this leveraging change of direction with your hands against the shaft turns the hips for the downswing. like i mentioned, its a cascading effect - like dominos.

good questions!
Michael

 

[Manavs]

I am glad it has been entertaining for people to read and informative as well, I always like to put my point across without trying to impose a certain idealistic swing, I think you have to teach on sight and although there are some great instruction books out there with fantastic ideas and theories, I don't think that going to see your PGA pro can be beaten, these guys are well versed and can spot a problem, get to the root cause of it and hopefully bring you out the other side a better player.

thats a pretty blind faith statement - your local PGA pro is well versed in running a pro shop, knowing the rules, shuffling inventory, managing his staff etc which accounts for at least 90% of his job.

if the PGA pro could could "get to the root cause" then handicaps would be going down.

like in any profession you need a specialist in this arena who has submerged themselves in just the facets of communicating concepts which bring about a DEMONSTRATABLE change for the client. nothing against PGA pros - but this is a specialized area and being a PGA or non pga has little to nothing do with it. just look at the gptp curriculum.

Manavs, with regards to your left arm behind the back drill, although swing your arms down first and then your body following creates a louder noise, notice when the noise actually appears, pre impact, the normal sequence of movements for an efficient motion causes there to be a build up until impact and then increased speed impact and post, sequentially and timing wise your body would be playing catch up too much in my opinion.

it may appear pre impact - but its louder for sure, meaning its moving faster, and not as severe on the back. so your body is supporting the action not fighting it - all good things so far -

when you change over from the blank shaft to the heavier golf club, the weight of the head will resist this force your applying to it, and move it from pre-impact to actual impact.

 

[charnockpro]

I am guessing from this you are not a PGA member?, I have to disagree with you on specialist teachers, there are many teachers out there under the PGA brand who solely teach for a living, no shop, no staff, no inventory, at least the UK PGA that is.

Handicaps coming down would require from the student themselves the work ethic required, but many a time I have heard a player say, "they have wrecked my swing with the changes they have made", I then counter with, have you been to the range and put into practice what you have been told? more often than not you find they haven't, reducing their chances of any change effectively

Not denying the club is moving faster, what I am saying is that it is moving too fast too early and more than likely losing force approaching impact, whereas the sequential movement builds the speed up to impact.

With a weighted club the movement promotes a path whereby the club moves outside and around, quite unlike the movement you describe in conjunction with Golf Machine ethics.

 

[Manavs]

I am guessing from this you are not a PGA member?,

I have my own reasons for not going after pga status, and it was purely functionality - this isnt the thread to talk about it but put it this way - i graduated from the #1 PGM university in 3.5 years (not 4) with a curriculum that fellow graduates who went on to get their pga status said our classroom curriculum was harder than the actual pga's. in my senior year the pga approved Methodist College as one of their PGA Golf Management schools and the program got "dumbed down." there was a chance for them to grandfather us that year - they didnt and I never saw the need to go after it - there was no benefit for a person in my unique situation.

BTW jimmy ballard nor butch harmon are PGA members.

I have to disagree with you on specialist teachers, there are many teachers out there under the PGA brand who solely teach for a living, no shop, no staff, no inventory, at least the UK PGA that is.

i have nothing against the pga and this isnt a knock on the pga, its just not necessary for me personally. i completed all of my all my examinations, and passed the PAT - just not for me.

My point was dont believe because a person is PGA member that they know how to teach WELL. there are levels of teachers. Theres your local community college and then theres Oxford University.

The teachers that you mentioned that JUST TEACH id be much more apt to send clients to for the most part cause these guys are in the teaching trenches day in and day out than the guys behind the counter specializing in merchandising etc. its a little different here in the USA. The job description is more all encompassing when you mention your local PGA pro like they do on telecasts.

Handicaps coming down would require from the student themselves the work ethic required, but many a time I have heard a player say, "they have wrecked my swing with the changes they have made", I then counter with, have you been to the range and put into practice what you have been told? more often than not you find they haven't, reducing their chances of any change effectively

If the student is willing to be there, its the teachers responsibility to get him or her better. Its NEVER the students fault. Its the teachers responsibility to show and enforce the students ethics on how to be a student.

I dont take on clients that aren't going to put the commitment into themselves. i dont waste my time with them, nor do i waste their time. what i do with every new potential client is sit down and interview them first. what do they want to achieve? what are they willing to commit to achieve that goal?

From there i take into account what i'm working with, and where i can get them and what i believe its going to take from them. If they cannot commit to it, no problem, but if they can, now i take them on as a client. And I keep on them. Cause im not going to let their excuses to do something like practice get in my way of achieving my objective - which is them reaching their goals.

Im not into cookie cutter golf lessons. Im about getting the person their goals - whatever they are - and being honest with them on whatever that is going to be. I dont care about hurting feeling trust me. If im dealing with a overweight guy who needs to lose 50lbs in order to have the stamina on the course to play better, im going to get him in the gym and work his fat ass off him. and if there is an area i can;t handle that is interfereing with his objective ill find the person that can handle it. its not about ego its about results and i get results.

Not denying the club is moving faster, what I am saying is that it is moving too fast too early and more than likely losing force approaching impact, whereas the sequential movement builds the speed up to impact.

that blank shaft drill is to highlight the sequence of the hands going before the body.
the speed of the hand acceleration is another thing all together. yes if you go to fast from the top with the hands you can "spin the tires" like a sportscar on a wet day, what im saying is a gradual accelerating extension with the hands against the shaft from the top of the backswing.

With a weighted club the movement promotes a path whereby the club moves outside and around, quite unlike the movement you describe in conjunction with Golf Machine ethics.

the two primary ways the club comes over the top from the outside are:
- hips turning first sending the upper body out first before down
- the right hand unloading over the left from the top of the backswing.

on pages 277 and 278 in Atomic Golf i talk specifically about this.

the action on the downswing is of a side arm throw - like your skipping a stone across water. If you were to throw it overhand the stone would sink.

This sidearm throw attacks the ball from the inside. when your right arm is in this position - the palm is up from the start down and attacks from this position, naturally releasing as the arm runs out during the extension. this palm up also keeps the left shoulder in the shot.

conversely the right hand releasing over before extending brings the club over the top, causes casting, and spins the left shoulder out - all bad things.

=)
Michael

 

[charnockpro]

Congratulations on your achievement, I didn't doubt your qualification, It's just wgtf/egtf propoganda tells their guys to ridicule a century old establishment, and it seemed you were going down that lane calling the guys retailers who teach every so often, very easy to pigeon hole.

Love the selection of non PGA instructors there, you will find a lot more under the badge than not.

Guys have to move with their times, and when it comes to downing the sticks, or when lessons dry up due to economic uncertainty, they still have other avenues to make their money

The student has to have the spare time to carry out promises, you can instill what is expected, if they choose not to take it up then they only have themselves to blame

I have to take issue with your quotes, you say listen to the speed difference so I do, I then explain it is pre not at or post impact that the speed is at it's fastest, you move the goal posts and say it is to highlight accelerating extension and the sequencing of hands before the body, please do make your mind up what it is the drill is for.

the two primary ways the club comes over the top from the outside are:
- hips turning first sending the upper body out first before down
- the right hand unloading over the left from the top of the backswing.

Thanks for the golf lesson there as I had forgotten that happens :bang:

The throwing technique you describe, the right elbow moves in and then extends after release of the stone!:bang:

YouTube - Paul Lawrie Driver Wentworth 2009 Here is a PGA qualified Choccy seller and Major Champ

YouTube - IAN POULTER SLOW MOTION 6TH TURNBERRY OPEN 2009 and another

 

[Manavs]

Congratulations on your achievement, I didn't doubt your qualification, It's just wgtf/egtf propoganda tells their guys to ridicule a century old establishment, and it seemed you were going down that lane calling the guys retailers who teach every so often, very easy to pigeon hole.

i dont know what the wgtf/egtf is/are but suffice it to say im not part of them either.

Love the selection of non PGA instructors there, you will find a lot more under the badge than not.

Guys have to move with their times, and when it comes to downing the sticks, or when lessons dry up due to economic uncertainty, they still have other avenues to make their money

If the student is willing to be there, its the teachers responsibility to get him or her better. Its NEVER the students fault. Its the teachers responsibility to show and enforce the students ethics on how to be a student.

The student has to have the spare time to carry out promises, you can instill what is expected, if they choose not to take it up then they only have themselves to blame

and this is where i learned my lesson, my first year teaching i gave 2800 lessons. i was burnt out with all those yeah ill practice etc types. after that i went from volume to quality. my point is - (why do i feel like i keep saything those three words?????) as the teacher i get the student to tell me their goals, and then to understand exactly what its going to take to achieve that. if they want to put the time in fine im there. but dont waste our times. now if a student goal is smaller and say stop slicing fine, then lemme show you how. but i look for long term students for life.

I have to take issue with your quotes, you say listen to the speed difference so I do, I then explain it is pre not at or post impact that the speed is at it's fastest, you move the goal posts and say it is to highlight accelerating extension and the sequencing of hands before the body, please do make your mind up what it is the drill is for.

i felt like you moved the goal posts. i gave you a drill to show power - which one was louder.

you came back with the speed is louder but pre impact

so i answered your pre impact point with the heavy weight explanation

and you went on to saying that youd run out of acceleration by the time impact came

and i said dont spin the tires from the start down only to refine my explanation.

im just hittin what your throwin at me :beach3:

the two primary ways the club comes over the top from the outside are:
- hips turning first sending the upper body out first before down
- the right hand unloading over the left from the top of the backswing.

Thanks for the golf lesson there as I had forgotten that happens :bang:

The throwing technique you describe, the right elbow moves in and then extends after release of the stone!:bang:

dont understand why your banging your head. i am not describing a non traditional swing, im just explaining how i do it.

 

[charnockpro]

I agree that quality over quantity is the way to go, I agree players should not look at quick fix, paper over the cracks teaching, build trust and they will always come back.

i felt like you moved the goal posts. i gave you a drill to show power - which one was louder. my key is that i have the hands unload against the shaft to cause the hip turn, not the hip turn causing the hands to unload (which is popular theory). now this looks like a completely normal swing with the hips leading the downswing, but i assure you i am NOT trying to move the hips first. by unloading the hands first my hips respond by turning. a drill for this is to put a blank shaft in your right hand (left hand behind your back) and from the top of the swing do one of two things - move the body first then bring the club down or 2 bring the club down first and have the body follow. you gave me the drill to explain your sequencing

I actually said that with a weighted club the club approached from the outside and around when using the exact same drill

I get the feeling that you are somewhat talking down to me, and find it funny to belittle me with your idea's, If that is the way you handle having a few spanners stuck in the wheels, then I don't know what to say, It is an active debate.

 

[Manavs]

I actually said that with a weighted club the club approached from the outside and around when using the exact same drill

then i am not duplicating what your saying here. i can do that drill coming from the inside and put a weighted club in my hand and the club doesnt come from the outside. where are you getting that from is what im not understanding

 

[charnockpro]

From doing the drill myself and watching on camera!, maybe because you are stronger you can manipulate the club coming inside, but doing the drill to the letter with me, the clubhead comes down outside of the hands and slightly across it, maybe I need to bulk up a bit

 

[Manavs]

From doing the drill myself and watching on camera!, maybe because you are stronger you can manipulate the club coming inside, but doing the drill to the letter with me, the clubhead comes down outside of the hands and slightly across it, maybe I need to bulk up a bit

I'll put this on camera today and upload it.

Michael

 

[Manavs]

also whats a Choccy seller????

 

[charnockpro]

Seller of sweet tasting confectionery Mars Bars, Twix's etc....

 

[Manavs]

ahhh well thats why i didnt recognize it - too high in refined carbohydrates :emot-ange

 

[Manavs]

Put a lil video together from a few angles hopefully this clears up what i was saying. enjoy

YouTube - Shottalk video answer

 

[charnockpro]

Thanks for posting the video,and taking the time out to do it, that is much appreciated.

Ok, from the drill you described the reason i got the club outside of my hands and on an outside path was that as per your drill I swung my arms down which i took to mean in front of the body, It was only afterwards where you added in the analogy of palm up/stone skimming that i could see what you meant.

maybe when you gave the drill out at first you should have incorporated that, as this changes the delivery path altogether by flattening the shaft out, also one thing I do notice personally from your swing is that just before impact your right arm is close in to your right hip and you then employ palmar flexion to square it up, resulting in a slightly vertical finish to the shaft suggesting independent hand action to square the face through impact, also on the recoil the face is slightly shut suggesting a bowing or palmar flexion through impact, this is just what i see and in no means a critique at all as reading your achievements you can make the ball talk.