Shooting in Toronto Mall

[warbirdlover]

I thought Canada had gun laws where no one could own a handgun. Oh. I guess that's the law abiding citizens. Gang members still can get them and use them. Now if this happened in Wisconsin with all the concealed carry permits a bunch of people would have fired back at the a**hole. (Assuming there are no 9 year old girls hiding behind him/her).

http://news.yahoo.com/deadly-shooting-torontos-eaton-centre-sparks-mass-panic-105159188.html

 

[BigJim13]

I thought Canada had gun laws where no one could own a handgun. Oh. I guess that's the law abiding citizens. Gang members still can get them and use them. Now if this happened in Wisconsin with all the concealed carry permits a bunch of people would have fired back at the a**hole.

http://news.yahoo.com/deadly-shooting-torontos-eaton-centre-sparks-mass-panic-105159188.html

And likely with all that shooting there would have been more injuries or deaths.

 

[eclark53520]

And likely with all that shooting there would have been more injuries or deaths.

It's been proven time and time again that more legal guns <> more gun violence. Ask every single state that has passed a concealed carry law.

Shootings like this don't turn into 30 guys shooting in a circle. That's just the liberal media and their imaginations. The amount of legally armed members of the public is a small percentage. Most states it's between 1 and 3 percent of the public have a concealed carry license. That means the odds of someone in that crowd actually carrying is pretty small. The odds of a legally carrying citizen being in a position to shoot is even smaller. The odds of them shooting instead of running is smaller than that. Most CCL carriers will try to remove themselves from the situation before shooting. Putting yourself in a gunfight you can easily remove yourself from is not a good idea if you want to live to see your next birthday.

So the odds of a legally armed citizen accidentally shooting a bystander is so insignificant, the bystanders have a better chance of getting struck my lightening than getting hit by a stray bullet from a legally armed citizen.


That said. Personally, i would rather be shot accidentally by a legally armed citizen trying to take out an active shooter than be shot by that active shooter. I would die a happy man knowing someone was brave enough to try and stop that psycho.

Also, I far prefer that extremely small likelihood of an innocent being shot by a legally armed citizen trying to take out an active shooter than not being able to be armed at all.

The average citizen is millions of times more likely to die in their vehicle at the hands of an inept driver than they are at the hands of an inept CCL carrier. Yet no one seems to mind getting in their vehicle every morning.

 

[BigJim13]

It's been proven time and time again that more legal guns <> more gun violence. Ask every single state that has passed a concealed carry law.

Shootings like this don't turn into 30 guys shooting in a circle. That's just the liberal media and their imaginations. The amount of legally armed members of the public is a small percentage. Most states it's between 1 and 3 percent of the public have a concealed carry license. That means the odds of someone in that crowd actually carrying is pretty small. The odds of a legally carrying citizen being in a position to shoot is even smaller. The odds of them shooting instead of running is smaller than that. Most CCL carriers will try to remove themselves from the situation before shooting. Putting yourself in a gunfight you can easily remove yourself from is not a good idea if you want to live to see your next birthday.

So the odds of a legally armed citizen accidentally shooting a bystander is so insignificant, the bystanders have a better chance of getting struck my lightening than getting hit by a stray bullet from a legally armed citizen.


That said. Personally, i would rather be shot accidentally by a legally armed citizen trying to take out an active shooter than be shot by that active shooter. I would die a happy man knowing someone was brave enough to try and stop that psycho.

Also, I far prefer that extremely small likelihood of an innocent being shot by a legally armed citizen trying to take out an active shooter than not being able to be armed at all.

The average citizen is millions of times more likely to die in their vehicle at the hands of an inept driver than they are at the hands of an inept CCL carrier. Yet no one seems to mind getting in their vehicle every morning.

I don't disagree with anything you posted. However, I was responding to the comment of WBL, that since so many Wisconsinites carry weapons this was less likely to happen or somehow be not as bad. Which seems to be disproven by your post.

I don't have a problem with people owning guns. I don't have a problem with people owning handguns. I do take issue with concealed carry permits mainly because there is no telling how a person will react if the need arises. There is no telling what stress and adrenaline will do to a person if they need to pull their weapon, justified or not (George Zimmerman? Perfect example).

If you carry a gun to feel safer thats fine. But what about me? What if I don't feel safer by you (not you specificially Clark) carrying a gun? Where do my rights to feel safe come in the whole gun argument?

 

[SilverUberXeno]

I don't disagree with anything you posted. However, I was responding to the comment of WBL, that since so many Wisconsinites carry weapons this was less likely to happen or somehow be not as bad. Which seems to be disproven by your post.

I don't have a problem with people owning guns. I don't have a problem with people owning handguns. I do take issue with concealed carry permits mainly because there is no telling how a person will react if the need arises. There is no telling what stress and adrenaline will do to a person if they need to pull their weapon, justified or not (George Zimmerman? Perfect example).

If you carry a gun to feel safer thats fine. But what about me? What if I don't feel safer by you (not you specificially Clark) carrying a gun? Where do my rights to feel safe come in the whole gun argument?

I think the problem is... People who care about how you feel are not the ones you need to worry about. The people that would put you in harms way are the same people who would have guns, legal or not. The bad guys are going to be armed either way. Gun laws serve to disarm the good guys. Does not seem productive to me.

This coming from someone who does not own a gun, and has fired one twice, ever. If bad people obeyed laws, they wouldn't be bad people, and there'd be no real need for the gun law to begin with. But if they're going to have guns, I'd prefer the good guys did too. You never know.

 

[BigJim13]

I think the problem is... People who care about how you feel are not the ones you need to worry about. The people that would put you in harms way are the same people who would have guns, legal or not. The bad guys are going to be armed either way. Gun laws serve to disarm the good guys. Does not seem productive to me.

This coming from someone who does not own a gun, and has fired one twice, ever. If bad people obeyed laws, they wouldn't be bad people, and there'd be no real need for the gun law to begin with. But if they're going to have guns, I'd prefer the good guys did too. You never know.

I dont disagree with you, it doesnt make sense to disarm law abiding citizens. But here is my problem. I have NO idea, ZERO, NONE how a person will react when in a situation that calls for a gun to be drawn. I have no idea or control over how much or little training a person takes before carrying a weapon. I believe it makes a situation worse if there are more guns and more people wielding them, more so if they don't know what they are doing.

Obviously, you cant control criminals and that is part of life. If you could gurantee me that every law abiding citizen that carry's a concealed weapon has had some sore of military/police training and has been trained to deal with high stress situations involving weapons, I would feel better about it. Until then, leave the guns at home.

 

[eclark53520]

I am not military or police. I can honestly tell you that I have been through more training than my local police officers. I'm high school friends with 3 local cops. I'm not sure why the general public thinks cops know what they're doing with weapons anymore than anyone else. You should look up the tests they have to pass to carry a weapon on duty. To say it's easy is an understatement. Some cops get more training, the majority do the bare minimum to keep a job.

You can't control or know how anyone is going to act in any life/death situation. I'm not sure how being a concealed carry holder makes much of a difference.

Again, I liken this to being on the roadways. We all know that driving a car is dangerous. Far more people are killed every day in car accidents than by weapons. We seem to find it perfectly fine to allow 16 year olds access to a vehicle that will carry more kinetic energy at 25 miles per hour than some rifle bullets carry at the muzzle.

Walking down the street are you ducking for cover every time a car drives by? You can't know how much training that person had behind the wheel. What if they were put in a life/death situation and ran you over?

Maybe statistics would make you feel better. Florida has great statistics available. It will show you that concealed carry holders are hundreds times less likely to even commit petty theft or speed than the rest of the general public. The odds of you being present or even within a mile of a situation where they would need to pull a gun are astronomical. Your rights stop when they infringe on my rights. Me(or anyone) carrying a gun does not infringe your(or anyones) rights.

I understand your qualms with concealed carry. There will always be someone that falls through the cracks and gets a license that probably shouldn't have. That shouldn't stop all the good people from being able to defend themselves should the need arise. I'm scared to death of some of the people out on the roads...that doesn't mean i should be able to take away their driving privileges.

 

[eclark53520]

I don't disagree with anything you posted. However, I was responding to the comment of WBL, that since so many Wisconsinites carry weapons this was less likely to happen or somehow be not as bad. Which seems to be disproven by your post.

I don't have a problem with people owning guns. I don't have a problem with people owning handguns. I do take issue with concealed carry permits mainly because there is no telling how a person will react if the need arises. There is no telling what stress and adrenaline will do to a person if they need to pull their weapon, justified or not (George Zimmerman? Perfect example).

If you carry a gun to feel safer thats fine. But what about me? What if I don't feel safer by you (not you specificially Clark) carrying a gun? Where do my rights to feel safe come in the whole gun argument?

You're right. I don't agree with what wbl said about people firing back at him.

Even if i were at that mall unless I was directly in the line of fire and my life was being threatened. I would not have fired.

The only time I actively seek out a shooter is in my own home or possibly at work since my wife works in my building. I can't carry at work though....


You will find that the overwhelming majority of people who will go through the time and money of acquiring a CCL are upstanding members of society and have a very good head on their shoulders. They don't take risks and only carry a weapon to protect themselves from very specific threats on their life. Like i said before, the odds of being hit by a stray bullet from a lawful self defense shoot is probably in the realm of drowning in the desert.

 

[sssmokin]

My view on having a CCL is that in an event where a criminal intends to shoot you or your family or any other innocent people, calling the police and expecting them to arrive in time to protect you is ridiculous. They will arrive in time to write up the report and call someone in to clean up your dead bodies and blood. If a criminal knows that there may be someone out there with a CCL, well trained in firearms, he will think twice before committing his crime.

 

[BigJim13]

My view on having a CCL is that in an event where a criminal intends to shoot you or your family or any other innocent people, calling the police and expecting them to arrive in time to protect you is ridiculous. They will arrive in time to write up the report and call someone in to clean up your dead bodies and blood. If a criminal knows that there may be someone out there with a CCL, well trained in firearms, he will think twice before committing his crime.

What if you shoot, miss and kill a 9 yr old girl behind the bad guy? Cost of doing business? Should I feel better about you having a gun to defend yourself then?

 

[BigJim13]

I am not military or police. I can honestly tell you that I have been through more training than my local police officers. I'm high school friends with 3 local cops. I'm not sure why the general public thinks cops know what they're doing with weapons anymore than anyone else. You should look up the tests they have to pass to carry a weapon on duty. To say it's easy is an understatement. Some cops get more training, the majority do the bare minimum to keep a job.

You can't control or know how anyone is going to act in any life/death situation. I'm not sure how being a concealed carry holder makes much of a difference.

Again, I liken this to being on the roadways. We all know that driving a car is dangerous. Far more people are killed every day in car accidents than by weapons. We seem to find it perfectly fine to allow 16 year olds access to a vehicle that will carry more kinetic energy at 25 miles per hour than some rifle bullets carry at the muzzle.

Walking down the street are you ducking for cover every time a car drives by? You can't know how much training that person had behind the wheel. What if they were put in a life/death situation and ran you over?

Maybe statistics would make you feel better. Florida has great statistics available. It will show you that concealed carry holders are hundreds times less likely to even commit petty theft or speed than the rest of the general public. The odds of you being present or even within a mile of a situation where they would need to pull a gun are astronomical. Your rights stop when they infringe on my rights. Me(or anyone) carrying a gun does not infringe your(or anyones) rights.

I understand your qualms with concealed carry. There will always be someone that falls through the cracks and gets a license that probably shouldn't have. That shouldn't stop all the good people from being able to defend themselves should the need arise. I'm scared to death of some of the people out on the roads...that doesn't mean i should be able to take away their driving privileges.

I think the car analogy is ok, kind of apples and oranges. The vast majority of Americans need a car to get to work, school etc. To compare it to owning and carrying a weapon is just not the same. You don't need your gun to earn your living, its part of the cost of doing business and we need to teach at some point to drive.

Let me ask this, if the odds are so astronomical that you would be in the situation, why bother?

Maybe the police don't have strenou tests. I honestly don't know and assumed that they did.

 

[nututhugame]

I feel like this... if I feel like I need to carry, I will. I don't need a permit to do that. To me that permit is just one more piece of paper I don't want my name on. If I am actually carrying it's because I am going somewhere or going to be around people where the chances of me actually needing it is way higher in which case I would rather be caught with it than without it. Better to by tried by 12 than carried by 6. Other than that I kinda agree with Jim that since the chances are so astronomical that i'd need it or even use it I don't feel the need to carry just because I can. I like the fact that WI can now for the fact that criminals don't know who is. If I were out to prove a point i'd just wear it on my hip as that is actually legal too. Was legal before all the concealed carry. To tell the truth I don't even own a hand gun. I used to, but sold it because I never used it and my kid was getting old enough to snoop. To me there is no point in having a gun for home protection unloaded and in a safe. I kept it in the droor next to the bed with a full clip in it. All that had to be done was cock and rock. I can't roll like that with the kids around and I wasn't target shooting anymore so I got rid of it.

 

[BigJim13]

I am not against guns or owning guns. I used to have several and just don't happen to at the moment. I just don't see how carrying a weapon by getting a permit to do so correlates to a safer society.

 

[sssmokin]

What if you shoot, miss and kill a 9 yr old girl behind the bad guy? Cost of doing business? Should I feel better about you having a gun to defend yourself then?

I would not shoot at a criminal with anyone standing behind them. I'm not an idiot and I practice safety as most everyone familiar with handguns would do. I served in Vietnam as a Marine Corps medic, and I'm quite aware of what a bullet can do. To assume I would shoot a 9 yr old girl is ridiculous. A handgun is only accurate at closer range, and trust me, I would not miss a criminal at close range, and I would not shoot with a 9 yr old girl standing behind them.

 

[sssmokin]

I feel like this... if I feel like I need to carry, I will. I don't need a permit to do that. To me that permit is just one more piece of paper I don't want my name on. If I am actually carrying it's because I am going somewhere or going to be around people where the chances of me actually needing it is way higher in which case I would rather be caught with it than without it. Better to by tried by 12 than carried by 6. Other than that I kinda agree with Jim that since the chances are so astronomical that i'd need it or even use it I don't feel the need to carry just because I can. I like the fact that WI can now for the fact that criminals don't know who is. If I were out to prove a point i'd just wear it on my hip as that is actually legal too. Was legal before all the concealed carry. To tell the truth I don't even own a hand gun. I used to, but sold it because I never used it and my kid was getting old enough to snoop. To me there is no point in having a gun for home protection unloaded and in a safe. I kept it in the droor next to the bed with a full clip in it. All that had to be done was cock and rock. I can't roll like that with the kids around and I wasn't target shooting anymore so I got rid of it.

I have a CCL but I have never carried a weapon yet. But if I lived in many of the cities I would. Ask someone who lives in Chicago or Detroit about the gangs there.