Uncalled for rudeness!

[Bravo]

I play fast and love to play with others who play fast so in this regard, I am like Rory.

On the other hand, I play with two guys in my groups that are Crane/Garcia-like.

They are very deliberate. Take two practice swings.

And then the wiggles start. And the fidgets. Look up and down the fairway. Fidget, then wiggle. Look down.

Honestly both of them are good guys but I would rather play with somebody else. But they are "regulars" in my golf world of about 20-25 players and as a result - I have had to learn to adjust. We are in the same circle of players and I am going to be in the same groups with them whether I like it or not.

Sabatini has a right to be upset because Crane got him put on the clock. But he has no right to do the crap he did.

Standing right behind the pin?? Naw!!

And then putting out when Crane was away? Nope nope nope.

Walking off the green when he is a scoring marker for Crane? What if there was some sort of dispute in the tent about Crane's score?

He showed his ass. The game has rules and ettiquette and he ignored both...

 

[Rockford35]

Agreed.

I think the slow play issue and Rory are two seperate items. He was a dick, plain and simple.

The other side of the coin was the slow play. But that's the marshall's fault. If those guys don't want incidents like that anymore, put out a statement or start incurring penalties.

Rory will be showing his ass to the commish, i bet.

R35

 

[DaveE]

My wife was in the living room while this was going on and heard me talking at the TV, saying things like what an ass.

Since she wasn't really watching she asked what was going on and I tried to explain it to her. To be honest, at first she didn't see what the big deal was but after I explain how golf was still different than other pro sports she got it. She was pretty surprised to learn that golfers routinely call penalties on themselves.

My feelings and what I explained to my wife was that golf was still a gentleman's game and that it's ok to be frustrated but it's not ok to act like an ass. If that kind of behavior were to become common, golf would suffer. I hope whatever punishment he receives that it is severe enough so that others aren't even tempted to act like that.

 

[Gorse]

I must say I can surely sympathize with Rori Sabattini. Following nearly five hours of excruciating nausea culminating in being on the clock, I would say that his behaviour was marginally over the top but understandable, even commendable, from some perspectives. The fact that they were off the clock by 17 was probably precious little consolation by that time.
Etiquette and respect for your fellow player are paramount in golf. It is a huge transgression of that respect to cause a fellow player to be placed in the entirely uncomfortable position of being on the clock when it is no fault of his own. The Glen Day’s and Ben Crane’s are at fault not the Rori Sabittini’s of the world. As the very gracious Crane said, he was the problem. He seems to be a wonderful man, but that does not negate the fact that plain and simple he is the problem. Move it up or get out of the game.
The biggest clown of the whole scene was Paul Azinger who went on and on about the incident. He should understand that the biggest impediment to the growth of golf in North America is the 5, sometimes 6 hour round. Kids watch these guys and listen to the diatribe espoused by the likes of Paul Azinger and think that a 15 handicap should be lining up a putt from four different angles, monitoring wind speeds like a weather man and in general making a nuisance of themselves.
I make a point of playing in Scotland a minimum of once a year. It is such a pleasure to go the Old Course, the home of golf and probably the most sought after tee time in the world and get the round in under 4 hours. The PGA Tour is entertaining and fun to watch but it has a negative effect on golf for the average golfer who emulates the anal goings on of the pros.

 

[Slingblade61]

Welcome to the board Gorse!

It took me a few minutes to absorb what you are saying but the thing that struck me in particular was your last sentence..

The PGA Tour is entertaining and fun to watch but it has a negative effect on golf for the average golfer who emulates the anal goings on of the pros.

I think that this is more true of pretty much any other sport, baseball in particular. Golf? I think that most of us strive to emulate the play rather than the anal goings on.

I must admit, I am not at all familiar with Mr. Crane or his style of play but Sabbatini was just behaving like a child....I have children, so I know.

 

[Kilted Arab]

I make a point of playing in Scotland a minimum of once a year. It is such a pleasure to go the Old Course, the home of golf and probably the most sought after tee time in the world and get the round in under 4 hours. The PGA Tour is entertaining and fun to watch but it has a negative effect on golf for the average golfer who emulates the anal goings on of the pros.

Hi Gorse.

I was back home in Scotland a few weeks ago and had two rounds on the Old Course courtesy of being lucky in the daily ballot.

It had been a couple of years since I'd played there, but the annoyances remained the same. It's a bit of a factory, churning out fourball after fourball and there is an unavoidable clog-up around the loop section of the course...where the 7th crosses the par 3 11th. Tails back the whole course and, through no fault of our own as we had nowhere to go, our round took 4hrs 45.

Where do you golf when you go over there?

 

[Gorse]

I play at a number of places, my most recent outting that I returned from about 3 weeks ago included The New, The Old, Kingsbarns, Royal Aberdeen, Brora, Dornoch (twice), Prestwick and Troon. I have played throughout Scotland, Ireland and the UK in general, on many occassions. Scotland is without a doubt the world's best golf. I have never, in about 10 games, around the Old, played in over 4 hrs. The same goes for the other named courses.
But back to the topic at hand the problem is more appropriately about the inconsiderate play of those who would confound the play of their playing partners by putting off their rythym to the point of making their day a bloody mess. We need to concentrate more on those who are the problem not on a simple one time issue by someone who was entirely frustrated. The simple issue is that Crane and other similarly slow players are a problem. Sabattini was over the top, but if his behaviour helps correct the situation he is more of a hero than a bum. It is unfotunate that the likes of Paul Azinger don't understand that.

 

[Kilted Arab]

I play at a number of places, my most recent outting that I returned from about 3 weeks ago included The New, The Old, Kingsbarns, Royal Aberdeen, Brora, Dornoch (twice), Prestwick and Troon. I have played throughout Scotland, Ireland and the UK in general, on many occassions. Scotland is without a doubt the world's best golf. I have never, in about 10 games, around the Old, played in over 4 hrs. The same goes for the other named courses.
But back to the topic at hand the problem is more appropriately about the inconsiderate play of those who would confound the play of their playing partners by putting off their rythym to the point of making their day a bloody mess. We need to concentrate more on those who are the problem not on a simple one time issue by someone who was entirely frustrated. The simple issue is that Crane and other similarly slow players are a problem. Sabattini was over the top, but if his behaviour helps correct the situation he is more of a hero than a bum. It is unfotunate that the likes of Paul Azinger don't understand that.

Bit of a threadjack to start with, but there are some pictures on here from my Scotland trip you may be interested in...

To play Devil's Advocate here - and I agree slow play is a problem - what about this scenario:

Two players, one slow and one fast. The slow player is well within time controls, but a lot slower than his playing partner. The fast player gets increasingly pee'd off with the slow guy....but, doesnt the slow guy get equally pee'd off with the guy playing fast? Is one at fault more than the other?

 

[VtDivot]

I play fast and love to play with others who play fast so in this regard, I am like Rory.

On the other hand, I play with two guys in my groups that are Crane/Garcia-like.

Sergio has sped up his pre-shot routine considerably believe it or not

 

[Rockford35]

Sergio has sped up his pre-shot routine considerably believe it or not

It couldn't get any longer.....lol.

Good first post, Gorse. I can appreciate the points you bring up. When someone like Azinger goes on and on about something like that, there's usually something behind the scenes that we don't know about.

Maybe Rory is one of those guys that dries off in the locker room with his leg up on the sink countertop. You know the guys i'm talking about....jerks!

Welcome aboard, BTW.

R35

 

[longiron]

Ah....unacceptable in a weekend hack, never mind a pro...

Still, that's what happens when you let Americans into the game

(I await the backlash!)

Cheers

Good old Rori is from South Africa

 

[The master]

I think he meant about Ben Crane being so slow.

 

[P_102]

Gorse: "Etiquette and respect for your fellow player are paramount in golf."

Soooo, where was Rory's?

Cranes etiquette and respect for fellow players was demonstrated in his post match interview. Yes, he's slow, that has absolutely nothing to do w/ etiquette. Speed up so not to throw off your fellow players game maybe? ...And throw off your own?

The rule itself needs adjustment. It's unfair for a player that is playing fast to be penalized for anothers slow play.

 

[Gorse]

I'm not condoning Sabattini's behaviour, although I think it was bourn out of frustration.

If you play as slowly as Ben Crane apparently does it puts off the pace for the whole group. When you cause a group to go on the clock each player’s setup, preshot and shot routine is timed. You're the fast player who is over the ball when the gust of wind comes up, but you hesitate to re-consider the club selection as you know you are on the clock and in jeopardy of penalty under the rule. Any player who is consistently slow and who causes others the grief of having to endure this unfair rule shows a lack of respect for his fellow competitor. He simply has to pick it up.

At the risk of repeating myself I think the biggest jerk in the whole scene was Paul Azinger. He was over the top. He missed an opportunity to not only admonish Sabattini for his breach of etiquette but to also take slow play to task, which in my opinion is a problem of far greater magnitude than Sabittini’s behaviour.

 

[Bravo]

Gorse:

I too - welcome you - and hope we hear more from you here. This is a fine "club" and members like you are what we seek.

While I like 'Zinger, you have made a legitimate point. From a journalistic standpoint, he certainly did not present "both sides of the story". We had a situation where Both players behaved badly - Crane with his slow play and Sabatini with his multiple breaches of ettiquette.

One of the concerns that was discussed was the fact that a player who is "On the clock" ten times within a single season is subject to being fined. Someone like Ben Crane is the target of this rule and I am reasonably certain he has been on the clock before - especially based on his Mea Culpa in his post round interview.

I too recognize that the PGA Tour does display slower play than what we would like to see from amateurs. Any amateurs who use the PGA Tour pace of play as their own model - are doing a disservice to everyone on the course. The Four Hour Round is indeed the right model for most golf courses. Exceeding four hours takes the fun away from the game.

On the other hand, in amateur golf - the issue of rudeness and wanton disrespect for ettiquette is almost epidemic. I think much of it is Ignorance, in that many golfers have never been educated in the rules and ettiquette.

New golfers come to this site frequently - asking advice. We meet them here all the time, when they come on and tell us about their first few times at the range. I doubt seriously that these newbies have a clue about ettiquette and pace. If their ball is closer to the hole and they are ready to hit - I'll bet they do - because they do not know any better.

So while Azinger did not do a good job of telling "both sides of the story" - his rant about Sabatini's repeated and multiple violations of ettiquette was welcomed - and if any ignorant viewers watching learned from that - then some good will come of it. And he wasn't the only one - Faldo agreed wholeheartedly and commented that "the Secretary would not approve of this".

Ettiquette is "self-enforced" behaviour. Slow Play can - and Is - enforced by 3rd parties - the Rules Officials.