If the Arizona Cardinals

[nixdad]

Cards in the SB?

All I can say is WOW! I wouldn't have guessed it in a hundred years. Now if they can pull off another miracle...I really thought they were going to blow the game near the end of the third quarter, but they toughed it out.

 

[David Hillman]

edit 1 - Does Doug Williams and Mark Rypien belong in the Hall of
Fame? I am a diehard Skins fan, and you would never see me answer yes
to that. I am not sure Rypien belonged in the NFL and has similar
accomplishments to Warner. Without his WR's and Offensive Line, Rypien
would have been a bust. It would have been a tragedy for him not to
win the Super Bowl.

Rypien did have brilliant touch on long throws, for at least a couple years. That said, I agree with you, and never understood why people seem to regard the QB position the way they do. Joe Gibbs' whole theory on football was pretty simple; get the best players you can find for your offensive and defensive lines, and fill in around them with whoever you can scrape up. Anyone can run through gaping holes, or hit wide-open receivers! Timmy Smith for 204 yards!!

Look at the list of quarterbacks who have won SBs, and the quality varies widely. Now show me a Super Bowl champ that didn't dominate both sides of the line. All the linemen should go to into the Hall when their team wins the Lombardi. 'Skill' positions are almost irrelevant compared to linemen.

 

[JEFF4i]

Linemen are the most important positions in the game. They afford the quarterback time and the backs room. On the other side of the ball they are the only ones going for the QB on non-blitz plays, but can also keep the O-Line busy for blitzes.

Considering this, its why I find Roethlisberger to be one of the best QBs I've ever seen. He makes mistakes, but rarely when he has time, and all of this is considering the Steelers still have one of the worst O-Lines in football (though playoffs this year its seemed better).

 

[Pa Jayhawk]

Considering this, its why I find Roethlisberger to be one of the best QBs I've ever seen. He makes mistakes, but rarely when he has time, and all of this is considering the Steelers still have one of the worst O-Lines in football (though playoffs this year its seemed better).

Statistically position wise though he is about equal to that of his offensive line, and has one of the worst passer ratings in the NFL at 24th (80.1). So I would agree that he has a bad offensive line, and knows how to overcome taking a beating and running for his life, but I don't know that it makes him a great QB.

He also had a much better line in the past prior to losing Faneca. I guess it again comes down to how much emphasis you put on a QB for a team winning games. I don't see where he really overcame the adverse conditions of his offensive line. They have the #1 Defense in the league, it seems pretty apparent who is winning games for them. I would compare him to Trent Dilfer, and he lost his job after winning the Super Bowl, where Baltimore's defense scored more points than NYG Offense in the Superbowl.

 

[JEFF4i]

Statistically position wise though he is about equal to that of his offensive line, and has one of the worst passer ratings in the NFL at 24th (80.1). So I would agree that he has a bad offensive line, and knows how to overcome taking a beating and running for his life, but I don't know that it makes him a great QB.

He also had a much better line in the past prior to losing Faneca. I guess it again comes down to how much emphasis you put on a QB for a team winning games. I don't see where he really overcame the adverse conditions of his offensive line.

Might be a matter of how you look at it, but he's big, strong, and quite often has shown himself to be a playmaker. Remember the 3rd&9 and 3rd&12 in last Sunday's game? Yes he was 24th this past year, which I'm saying wasn't horrid considering that at one point he was being touched once ever 3 drop backs, and sacked once every 6. Last year he was 2nd behind Brady, and though he had Faneca, the line was still weak. He is one of the most sacked quarterbacks. Granted he holds on to the ball more than most, but still, the fact remains.

Since he has become the starter the Steelers have a record of 54-23. His rookie year he went 13-0, 14-1 counting post-season. Again, there are lots of reasons for this, Bettis, Ward, Holmes, etc. The fact remains, he deserves credit of his accomplishments, especially last year being a #2 rated QB in the league with a mediocre line, I think it was ranked somewhere around mid-20s. Further with a resume of 4 playoffs in 5 seasons, now 2 superbowls, and never having had one losing season, its still a consideration. Another note is that 30% of his wins have had a winning drive that he led. All I'm saying, is he is well above average.

I do agree though, and stand by my original point, that the Line is what can clinch or destroy a team. Look at last year's Patriots. Not many got to Brady, and he flourished because of it. Giants make the plays that get to him, and he throws a horrid game.

 

[Pa Jayhawk]

The fact remains, he deserves credit of his accomplishments, especially last year being a #2 rated QB in the league with a mediocre line, I think it was ranked somewhere around mid-20s.

I don't see how you can call them mediocre, unless you think Willie Parker is Bar none the best running back in the NFL.

Parker was 4th in rushing last year with 1,316 yards. The last 3 years he averaged over 1,300 yards and 4.4 yards a carry. This being on a Defensive minded ball control team. I just don't think he could do that with a mediocre offensive line unless you wanna compare him to guys like Walter Payton and Barry Sanders in running behind Miserable lines.. It is also more support to the fact that Big Ben has a supporting cast, and when that was not available to him he suffered.

Not saying he is a bad QB and not deserving of being the starter, although I could likely think of 15 other QB's I would rather have on my team. Again, I thought Dilfer was a good QB in all honesty, but he didn't deserve all the credit for winning games when he played respectively for the best defensive teams in the league at Balt and TB. To put the credit off on Big Ben is doing a disservice to the Defense, who is well deserving of the respect for winning games.

 

[Pa Jayhawk]

I think it was ranked somewhere around mid-20s.

BTW, doing a quick search, they were ranked 14th by Pro Football Weekly last year, before that they had Hartings as well, so I would bargain to guess they were ranked even high for his prior years..
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edit 1 - they were ranked 9th in 2006 and Big Ben had a rating of 75.4. Parker rushed for almost 1,500 yards.

 

[JEFF4i]

Oh no, I've already acknowledged that Big Ben has a lot of help, but I guess I'm scaling something that isn't always fully shown by the numbers. He just does well when he needs to more often than not.

 

[Pa Jayhawk]

Oh no, I've already acknowledged that Big Ben has a lot of help, but I guess I'm scaling something that isn't always fully shown by the numbers. He just does well when he needs to more often than not.

That is why I acknowledge I think he is a good QB, and further think he will have a long career. He has a heart and mind for the game, which will go a long way. I just would not say he is one of the top QB's for the reason mentioned.

Kinda like what you mention in his size and ability. This is one of the reasons I alway liked Culpepper. Although he is limited by the same things that will keep Roethlisberger around longer. Same with guys like Ryan Leaf, Heath Shuler, and now maybe even Matt Leinart. Could even go back to my all time favorite example who I would have expected to make the Hall of Fame, Art Schlichter, or more recently Michael Vick. They have the natural talent that could have made them some of the most capable QB's in the league, but they were limited by either their heart, mind or both.

 

[azgreg]

he would be the first QB to win 2 superbowls with 2 different teams right?

He would be the only one to win 2 Super Bowks with 2 different teams, but Craig Morton was the first QB to start for 2 different teams in the Super Bowl (dallas in 1970 and Denver in 1977).