Here's the Testimonial on the TVC Driver

[Clugnut]

Good thread here.

 

[indacup]

Could you PM me some info on Wishon and Geek heads?

If you are asking about the Ti Blend they use, in the 919 Wishon, he uses the SP-700....and Geek DCT uses the Beta-Ti and in the Fail Safe they use the 15.3.3.3

 

[SilverUberXeno]

When looking at those different kinds of steels, which properties affect characteristics of drivers? Elongation you said is a "give" function, and is a good crown/sole material. Is a big or small number better? And which number describles the elasticity of the metal? Like the SP-700 is a great face material.... which number tells you that?

 

[indacup]

The first time I recall a company making a driver using SP-700 was actually a COMPONENT company....back in (I believe) 2003, maybe 2002 Bang released the Big Bang 450.

They had tons of money then and shook the world with this HUGE, loud head that literally ate up anything around.....Hell, that head could STILL hold it's own to this day.

 

[floggerrushmd]

What kind of fatigue testing have you run on your club heads? With a lower density, higher hardness, and greater elongation percentage as a materials scientist that adds up to higher fatigue. Now the average golfer will most likely never hit enough balls to fatigue the head, but I have done it to my last two drivers before my current Adams, and I was just wondering what kind of data you have generated on the longevity of this club head with repeated ball striking.

On another note, do you have pictures of this driver? It is neat to hear about all the material design choices that went into it, but I would still like to see the driver itself in all its glory.

 

[Augster]

Here you go for the pics....

Linky: http://shottalk.com/forum/sponsors-bazaar/24617-finished-pictures-tvc.html

 

[RickinMA]

Rory,
Can you share anything about the face design? I'm sure I'm guilty of drinking too much of the Wishon punch on face design (but it probably makes sense since the OEMs push it too). Specifically, since the USGA tests CT/COR in the center of the face, many face designs have thicker middle sections and thinner sides to enlarge the effective sweet spot. (the whole variable face thickness thing)

I'm still anxiously awaiting an invoice from you so I can try this TVC head myself, but I noticed on the tour swing website the following about the TVC:

"We focused on face technology, utilizing the densest titanium material available, TVC Titanium. Hence the name of the head “TVC”. TVC allows us to produce a constant thickness face utilizing a state-of-the-art material, resulting in incredible feel and performance along with forgiveness on off-center hits."

Can you help me reconcile the "constant thickness face" with what we've all been reading the past couple years about VFT?

 

[indacup]

What kind of fatigue testing have you run on your club heads? With a lower density, higher hardness, and greater elongation percentage as a materials scientist that adds up to higher fatigue. Now the average golfer will most likely never hit enough balls to fatigue the head, but I have done it to my last two drivers before my current Adams, and I was just wondering what kind of data you have generated on the longevity of this club head with repeated ball striking.

Cool questions!

As you said, the average golfer will never reach a point with a driver where they will experience damage due to normal fatigue...You MAY have instances where a defect either unique or inherent may cause premature breakage (like a crack along a weld)...but RARELY will you see a face cave in due to hitting a golf ball.

There are exceptions and this occurred ALOT with many companies, when the standard head size jumped from 325/350cc to 450cc.

We found a lot of companies, in an effort to retain head weight at 200gms, but increase size 30% were over extending the material. Then paid the price.

Let me tell you something that in my opinion sets the best of the component companies above the best of the OEMs is this....

The component companies have been in LDA competition for years....many of these companies will had prototype heads and shafts to their long drive team who's swing speed can be in the mid 150's and "go at it".

Then they can start "dialing in"... triming material to get maximum distance...without breakage at those high speeds.

Once they do, its safe to assume us "normal" hitters will never come close to wearing out or breaking a head.

And to be honest with you....I really don't know any component company that will not back up a driver that broke under normal conditions.

The OEM companies never (except once I know of) took this approach....they made/make drivers that are as long as possible, but well within the safety range....Because OEMS sales are MASSIVE compared to Components, a bad head would be a disaster...whereas becasue componet sales are modest and runs done on an "as needed" basis, any corrective measures are inexpensive.

Remember awhile back the original release of the square Nike drivers were shattering like crystal thrown at a curb?

They knew Callaway was ready to introduce their square driver (incidentally a concept introduced almost a year earlier by a component company). And needed to rush out a square head.

We were fortunate to get samples of those...and in my opinion the problem was because to extend the crown back and wide, and maintain the face height and length....as well as overall weight, the "fornicated-Up" and created walls so thin a 12 year old girl could crack the face.

Yet, Nike PR was on the spot and annouced a recall because the faces were so "Hot" they were breaking...and they had to "turn back the volume" of their heads.

Pure, marketing B.S.

Oops! sorry, I went off on a tangent, didn't I?...LOL...bottom line, you should never see fatigue issues.....ever....unless theres a defect...and they better be backed up!

On another note, do you have pictures of this driver? It is neat to hear about all the material design choices that went into it, but I would still like to see the driver itself in all its glory.

I see someone posted pictures for us....

Please feel free to ask any questions...

If anyone is in the Milwaukee area this week, I will have a booth at the golf show...first 25 attendees will get a free regripping and frequency analysis of their driver...as well as get fitted recommendations and hot this new driver as well!

 

[indacup]

Rory,
Can you share anything about the face design? I'm sure I'm guilty of drinking too much of the Wishon punch on face design (but it probably makes sense since the OEMs push it too). Specifically, since the USGA tests CT/COR in the center of the face, many face designs have thicker middle sections and thinner sides to enlarge the effective sweet spot. (the whole variable face thickness thing)

I'm still anxiously awaiting an invoice from you so I can try this TVC head myself, but I noticed on the tour swing website the following about the TVC:

"We focused on face technology, utilizing the densest titanium material available, TVC Titanium. Hence the name of the head “TVC”. TVC allows us to produce a constant thickness face utilizing a state-of-the-art material, resulting in incredible feel and performance along with forgiveness on off-center hits."

Can you help me reconcile the "constant thickness face" with what we've all been reading the past couple years about VFT?

I sent out an additional invoice out to you earlier today......and in the meantime.....I don't know what or how much I can share about face design....but I will try....

First, let me ask one question........

Doesn't "variable face thickness" kinda mean the same as ""variable shot performance"?

aka..... "Crap shoot"?

Why in the world would anyone want a driver that advertises their face will play differently on where you hit it?

Seems to me....reliability, consistency breeds confidence....

 

[Augster]

VFT, variable face thickness, as I understand it, allows the clubmaker to make the THICKEST part in the middle of the face in order to pass the CT test.

Then the face slims and becomes much thinner outside of the center. Thinner faces mean more trampoline effect. So VFT effectively makes the sweet spot wider and taller in areas the USGA DOESN'T test.

I know I saw a Wishon chart of where he tested COR around different parts of the face of the 919 and compared it to testing of other OEM driver faces.

With the 919, the COR was very close to .830 even out to almost an inch away from the center each way.

Here is the chart in the May 2007 Etechreport:

http://www.wishongolf.com/etechreport/2007/may/index_std.html

 

[indacup]

Good point.....so lets talk about it.....

To create variable face thickness properly requires locating a ball end mill revolving about an axis generally normal to the inner surface of the face plate at an initial location on a circumferential intersection between the outer edge of the central thickened region and a transition region. The inner surface of the face plate is machined by moving the revolving ball end mill in a radial direction outwardly toward and through the transition region and the peripheral region to machine the inner surface of the face plate creating a tool channel having a width as the ball end mill traverses the transition region and thereby vary the thickness of the face plate in the tool path. The ball end mill is then raised in a direction normal to the surface of the face plate and relocated to a subsequent location on the circumferential intersection adjacent to the previous tool channel. The steps of machining, raising and relocating the ball end mill are repeated until the end mill has traversed the entire circumference of the circumferential intersection. In preferred embodiments, the machining step may vary the thickness of the transition region along a variable path, which may be a straight line, a curved line, or any other suitable path.

Unfortunately, this process does not alter the reading of the CT/pendulum test.....the results taken, even though taken at the center of the face is a result/culmination of how the entire face performs....because the surrounding territory SUPPORTS the center...and any reading of the center is a direct result of the area supporting it.

So lets "pretend" that some companies created what we shall call "Hot Spots" on the face.....does this mean they intentionally did so in a manner to penalize those who hit in the center of the face? If so, then why do they create face graphics designating a center of the face?

Why did Tom Wishon send out a book stating the sweet spot is the size of a pin head and for every 1/2" away from that means no less than 8 yards loss....then introduce a head that contradicts his statement?

It was Tims philosophy that you pay for the best material possible, design it in a way so the entire face is as consistent as possible.

Instead of making excuses why the heads are imperfect, and mis hits are penalized so much, why not just make a better head?

 

[Wi-Golfer]

Funny how we had almost the same discussion when the Renegade was released.

http://www.shottalk.com/forum/equipment-talk/16287-tour-swing-update.html

Not to piss in anyones Wheaties but I don't know of anyone here who picked up one of those & actually plays it anymore. I have let others use mine at the range & without exception they have disliked it quite a bit.

Hope this new driver works out better.

 

[eclark53520]

Funny how we had almost the same discussion when the Renegade was released.

http://www.shottalk.com/forum/equipment-talk/16287-tour-swing-update.html

Not to piss in anyones Wheaties but I don't know of anyone here who picked up one of those & actually plays it anymore. I have let others use mine at the range & without exception they have disliked it quite a bit.

Hope this new driver works out better.

I still play mine...

I like it and hit it quite well as long as i dont make my transition too quick/jerky....although i hit it REALLY HIGH i have a feeling the 10º head would work much better for me, i might just have to try this new one

 

[SilverUberXeno]

I feel like you don't understand VFT, Rory. The center of the face is suspended by the edges of the face; that's true. If this center is slightly thick, and still reaches .830 COR through engineering, the rest of the face can be made thinner to create a more widely applicaple trampoline effect that actually retains the .83 COR. Thinner titanium flexes more. So if the thickest part is at the limit of .83, going heel/toe and also to a thinner metal has a positive effect.

If the energy transfer were as efficient as it is center-face, the effective VFT sweetspot would be beyond .83 COR, I think.

And I'm not sure what the process of creating VFT has to do with this discussion. It seems like that was just meant to confuse.

 

[indacup]

Silver, I can see we are getting no where ...I previously explained that COR is an obsolete method of testing...not since 2003....

Progressive thinness of titanium does NOT dictate a progressive increase in energy.

There are different blends and manufacturing processes involved as I tried to explain.....

I cannot rationalize and explain actual technology when the others are holding up obsolete testing methods and superfluous advertising fluff as fact.

Incidentally, if the VFT technology was so cutting edge, why did Callaway ditch it for the "Hyperbolic face technology"?

Again, some people prefer to believe what they want...Sounds like the technology, expense, and test results aren't for everyone....

No problem....to each their own